Sexual Orientation OCD, aka HOCD / Gay OCD – Part 1
Many people mistakenly think of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) solely as a condition in which people wash their hands excessively or check door locks repeatedly. There are actually many sub-types of OCD. In this ongoing series, Jon Hershfield of the OCD Center of Los Angeles discusses Sexual Orientation OCD, also known as HOCD or Gay OCD.
So, Am I Gay or What?
I sat down to write this blog on Sexual Orientation OCD while my wife and I had started to watch a movie (It’s been suggested I work too much). It’s either irony or personalization, but the opening scene of the movie involves a man kissing his lover… another man. This is the second film in two weeks that I’ve rented which involve men and their male lovers, something I was not aware of when I selected the films.
Or was I?
Sexual orientation OCD is sometimes referred to as HOCD (an abbreviation for Homosexual Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) or Gay OCD. This is an unfortunate abbreviation because it misses the true nature of this manifestation of OCD.
Having gay thoughts is not the same as being gay
First, it is not exclusive to heterosexuals. Over the years, therapists here at OCD Center of Los Angeles have treated many homosexuals (male and female) who are plagued by obsessive fears of being “straight”, and who suffer equally when OCD attacks their sexual identity. Furthermore, the fears that clients with this condition report have little to do with actually becoming gay (or straight). At its core, Sexual Orientation OCD is the fear of not knowing for sure, paired with the fear of never being able to have a healthy, loving relationship with a partner to whom one feels genuinely attracted.
Similarly, someone with contamination fears may on the surface appear to be overly concerned with dirt, but this fear is indicative of an overwhelming fear of never feeling clean again. “If I don’t wash my hands, I will feel this way forever and nothing will be right in the world”. For every cry of “does this mean I’m gay?” there appears to be a louder cry of “does this mean I can’t be heterosexual anymore?”
In my experience with these clients, it also appears to have little to do with homophobia or bigotry. On the contrary, these clients are often quite open- minded on issues related to sexual orientation. In fact, it is their own lack of bigotry that often ends up being a fear trigger. One notable exception is cultural bigotry in which part of their Sexual Orientation OCD is fueled by the broader societal beliefs of the sufferer’s culture of origin. For simplicity’s sake, I will refer to “gay” throughout the rest of this article to describe any sexual orientation that is not one’s own. For those who are homosexual but have obsessive fears of “straightness” please substitute the appropriate word.
One thing that has struck me as bizarrely consistent is that OCD sufferers who obsess about their sexual identity seem notably less “gay” than me. Allow me to illustrate:
- Picture a man who loves the arts, has no interest in sports, admires electronic music, doesn’t “pull chicks” at the bar and feels little discomfort in the presence of naked men in the gym locker room. Obviously gay, right? But then, that describes me, despite the fact that I am straight.
- So what is the opposite of me? A man who loves watching sweaty guys fight over a ball, admires music fronted by long-haired androgynous men singing about love, and showers at home to avoid naked guys… Well, this sounds pretty gay too.
So this is what happens when your OCD locks in on sexual orientation. Whoever you are, whatever you do, suddenly seems gay. Just as the selective abstraction found in Contamination OCD makes it appear that dirt is everywhere, so does this same distortion make gayness appear to be hunting you down.
When this form of the OCD is in full swing, sufferers tend to over-attend to any indication that their “sexual orientation of origin” may be compromised. Since anxiety, distraction, and a lack of being “in the moment” are likely to make sexual experiences less gratifying, this often becomes a major trigger. “If I don’t always want to have straight sex, I must be gay!” Interestingly, the idea that they might be asexual altogether doesn’t come up. It’s the fear of the dark side, not the neutral one. And the idea that their libido is actually compromised as a result of the anxiety and obsessions that they experience due to their OCD just sounds like an excuse, rather than a rational argument. You simply cannot win when you play OCD’s game – OCD cheats.
Many people who suffer from Sexual Orientation OCD get stuck on the notion that they may or may not find someone attractive and that this may or may not mean something important about them sexually. If they see a member of the same sex, they feel it is possible that the “seeing” was really intentional “looking” and that this intentional looking indicates a secret sexual desire. They will often then attend to and monitor their genitalia to check for arousal in an attempt to prove or disprove the theory. This often backfires since attention causes sensation. This, by the way, is true of other body parts as well. When you consider picking something up with your hands, the brain actually sends a priming impulse to the hand before you’ve even made a decision to move.
It is important to recognize the fundamental error in the line of thinking that pairs acknowledgment of attractiveness with sexual desire. Attraction is a word we use to describe the feeling of being pulled into something, like a magnet. We generally conceptualize this feeling of being pulled-in as evidence of our desire to be near someone or something. This idea is troubling for the OCD sufferer who feels a strong need for certainty about the meaning of attraction, particularly when the false assumption is being made that all attraction is sexual attraction.
I often hear the question, “Am I attracted to this person?” from my clients. I’m never quite sure how to answer it because it is a loaded question. The words themselves only ask if the identified object is one they feel compelled to be near. Furthermore, the reason for the attraction could be any number of things, positive or negative. But the meaning my clients are hinting at is usually more along the lines of, “Do I desire to have sexual intercourse with this person?” The idea that I personally could even know what another person truly desires indicates an error in information processing. What is more striking is the fact that their OCD does not allow them to consider the possibility of being attracted to someone, while concurrently not wanting to engage in sexual behavior with that person.
Every person is capable of identifying others as “attractive”. This means that a person, regardless of gender, meets some set of criteria that is personally and culturally seen as attractive. For Westerners, this may have something to do with musculature, bone structure, and/or facial symmetry. But according to researchers, ancient Mayans apparently had a cultural preference for those who were cross-eyed and had flat foreheads. In other words, “attractive” is not a fixed concept, and has different meaning for different people.
When we look at an attractive landscape in nature, we desire to be near it. When we see an attractive person, this also compels us to linger. In some cases it may be envy that draws us in. Saying, for example, “I wish I had a body like that.” But in many cases, it’s just giving a thumbs-up to the universe. “Good one, Universe, you made an attractive person”. But for the person suffering with Gay OCD, this triggers abject horror.
I often get asked the question, “Do you think I’m gay?”. After the usual therapist-speak of “Does my opinion matter? Why do you want to know? And what would it mean to you if I thought you were?”, I suggest that my clients study the evidence with me. The test is not very thorough. It has one, simple question, with a few optional follow-ups:
“Do you like to have gay sex?”
That’s pretty much all we need to know in order to determine whether or not we should get busy with the work of treating their OCD.
I have seen clients with OCD who also happen to be gay. They obsess about the same things that other OCD sufferers struggle with, except quite notably that they don’t obsess about their sexual orientation. The only exceptions to this are gay clients who obsess about the possibility that they might actually be straight. And I have never had a homosexual client tell me they weren’t sure if they liked homosexual sex.
On the other hand, for straight individuals with Gay OCD, their biggest fear is often that they will seek therapy for unwanted thoughts about their sexual orientation, and that the therapist will tell them that these thoughts indicate that they must actually be gay. Unfortunately, this often happens when clients end up with ill-informed treatment providers who don’t understand what constitutes Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, and illuminates the importance of finding a therapist who thoroughly understands OCD and its appropriate treatment with Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT).
To put it as simply as possible, gay thoughts are not unwanted by homosexuals. For homosexuals, gay thoughts are what psychologists call ego-syntonic thoughts. That’s just a fancy way of saying that their gay thoughts are in keeping with their true values and desires. Conversely, for heterosexuals, gay thoughts are ego-dystonic, which simply means that the thoughts are in opposition to their true values and beliefs. Furthermore, gay people like to have gay sex, while straight people with Sexual Orientation OCD are terrified of having gay sex.
Part two of this series provides an in-depth explanation of how we treat Sexual Orientation OCD with Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT), with an emphasis on Mindfulness, Cognitive Restructuring, and Exposure and Response Prevention (ERP). Part two can be found at www.ocdla.com/blog/sexual-orientation-hocd-gay-ocd-treatment-2-1042.
Part three of this series provides an in-depth explanation various sub-types of Sexual Orientation OCD, and variations in their treatment CBT, ERP, and mindfulness. Part three can be found at www.ocdla.com/blog/sexual-orientation-ocd-hocd-sub-types-treatment-1198.
Part four of this series examines common challenges seen in the course of treating Sexual Orientation OCD. Part four can be found at http://www.ocdla.com.
•Jon Hershfield, MA, is a psychotherapist at the the OCD Center of Los Angeles, a private, outpatient clinic specializing in Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy (CBT) for the treatment of Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD) and related conditions. Jon can be contacted at jon@ocdla.com.
Please note: the “Comments” section for this article is now closed.
101 Comments to Sexual Orientation OCD, aka HOCD / Gay OCD – Part 1
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This article is a terrific explanation of HOCD, appealing to the confused reader or the reader with some knowledge on the subject.
I learned a lot about my thoughts from this article and I am thrilled to have found it.
Thank you.
This was an excellent article. As someone who suffered this theme and is now coming out of it, it is one of the best descriptions as to why I suffered. Most people I’ve discussed this with sadly confuse it with internalized homophobia and don’t understand that the real issue is I want to be with women and women only.
One thing that has always bothered me when reading literature on this theme though is the description of ego-syntonic. Where do people who are gay but in denial fit in with this? Take, for example, a gay person from a religious sect that condemns homosexuality. In this case, he desires to have gay sexual relations conflicts with his values.
This issue never really applied to me personally, but I would appreciate some clarification on the issue.
Hi Anthony, that’s an excellent question. It is sometimes the case that a homosexual person who has rigid cultural beliefs about homosexuality may wish NOT to be homosexual and attempt to suppress their thoughts of homosexuality to avoid what they see as negative consequences. However, the thoughts here are still ego-syntonic, even if unwanted, because they still fit in with a core reality consistent with other thoughts they may have. They don’t look at the homosexual thought and feel that it doesn’t make sense why it is there. They look at it and say it is something they DO feel and simply wish they didn’t.
In other words, ego-dystonic would be believing you are NOT gay and yet feeling bombarded by gay thoughts that seem alien to you, whereas ego-syntonic would apply to knowing you ARE gay and having gay thoughts that are consistent with your internal reality, regardless of whether the thoughts were ones you thought were acceptable.
This is a very interesting article on H-OCD, thank you. You have probably dealt with patients who had dreams connected to HOCD while it was at its peak.
Can you please clarify how those thoughts can sneak up in dreams? Speaking for myself I never had any dreams of such content before OCD struck me. Its now 10 months that I have been struggling with this disorder and I’ve probably had 4 dreams about it in total already. They had nothing to do with sex itself, but mostly with situations which might escalate to sex. I always wake up before feeling that great anxiety.
I thought that OCD could live only while you are awake. I understand that this looks like reassurance seeking, but it is a really weird moment for me and many other fellow OCD’ers. And I’ve read some articles, which stated that OCD can work only in waking mind.
Thank you for your question, and yes, I have seen ocd sufferers with all kinds of obsessions get very upset about their dreams.
The first step to understanding treatment for ocd is accepting that we cannot control our thoughts. We can control our behavior, which may lead to thoughts presenting themselves in different ways, but we don’t pick and choose what thoughts happen and what thoughts don’t. Since this is clear in waking life, I see no reason to think the rules are any different when we are asleep. Thoughts happen. Dreams happen.
An anxious person may recall a small bit of dreaming and they may identify the dream as anxious (being chased, for example). A person spending much of their time compulsively analyzing thoughts about sexual orientation is likely to remember dreams about sexual orientation. Whether they are actually HAVING more of these dreams or just over-attending to them is impossible to know for certain. In any case, I can state with confidence that I have had dreams of all kinds of behavior throughout my life and so far this has provided me with no useful information about who I am.
I’m not sure what articles you are referring to that state that ocd issues do not appear in dreams. I would be interested to read them as this theory runs counter to what many of my clients have reported.
Is a pity I can’t link to those articles – there were two of them, both written in my native language (I am not from an English speaking country). The idea was that OCD requires a high state of awareness and brain activity to do its best. And while we sleep, our brain is in a state of activity which is not active enough to trigger obsessions.
Besides, I am sure I never had any thoughts or dreams like that before, and I am close to 30 years old. On the one hand that signals that there’s no ground behind obsessions, but on the other, dreams are completely confusing. Probably one can feel any type of feelings in dreams, especially obsessing over them all day long, so they might be induced. And Freud theories makes it even more confusing…
The theory about heightened awareness having something to do with having Obsessive Compulsive Disorder is interesting, but not backed up by any of the scientific research I have seen. The ideas you are alluding to may have something to do with how you are defining the word “obsession” as I can find no rational argument to support the idea that certain kinds of thoughts are prohibited from occuring while a person is alive.
There are a lot of theories about the mechanisms of ocd, but only evidence-based treatment protocols have demonstrated consistent effectiveness.
The statement that you have “never” had certain dreams implies that you have memory of all of your dreams, which would make you quite unique indeed. It is commonly accepted that roughly 95% of dreams are not remembered, due in part to the fact that you are not converting short-term to long-term memory when in REM sleep. The fact that you are recently aware of certain dreams only suggests that they are particularly memorable to you.
I agree that dreams are confusing. I also agree that Freudian theories are confusing. If you take a look at some of what Freud had written about ocd (which he called obsessional neurosis), it is clear that he believed it was essentially impossible to treat. This is because his theories are of no use to the treatment of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.
Great posts and great comments too. I am struggling/battling this form of OCD and definitely get hung up on the EGO Dystonic stuff too. I can quickly fall into the ruminating side of things trying to “figure out” if my thoughts are truly in-compatible with how I see myself , or if perhaps I have just “trained” myself well from a young age.
The dream thing also hangs me up. I recently have had dreams with some gay content (sex only once), and also woke up extremely anxious and panicky. I can only think that, like Dr. Hershfield said – I have “flagged” these thoughts/dreams as dangerous and therefore and noticing them.
Thank you so much for this article. I have struggled with various forms of OCD for most of my life (I’m a 23-year-old female), and HOCD has been the most recent manifestation of this struggle, plaguing me for about a year now. I have been doing much better in recent months due to some help from new medication and am talking to a counselor, but I still get hung up on certain thoughts and ideas.
One worry I keep coming back to is that I have, at various points during adolescence, wondered or briefly worried about the possibility of being gay. None of these episodes were as intense or lasted as long as the one I’m currently in, and therefore I’m compelled to think of them not as OCD-related but as actual questioning and fear about my sexual identity. Which then leads to the question: if that wasn’t OCD, who’s to say there’s not a grain of truth in my current worryings?
My mom would tell me (and has) that even those earlier questions didn’t mean anything given my tendency to worry and over-analyze in many different areas of my life. So I guess my question at this point is, is it possible for a person’s intermittent adolescent fears about being homosexual/bisexual to be symptomatic of OCD even if they didn’t exhibit the intensity & longevity of full-blown HOCD? I guess it’s hard for me to conceptualize the boundaries of OCD, if there are any.
Again, thanks so much for such an articulate and encouraging article.
Thanks for the comments, Elizabeth. I think there are two things to consider here. First, your ocd says that you must be certain as to what is ocd and what is not, so it sends you on an endless quest to know for sure what a thought may or may not have meant at some point in your past. Your current challenge is to confront the discomfort of never knowing for sure if one of your thoughts had some sort of special meaning and you missed it. In other words, don’t be ocd about your ocd or you will be inclined to obsess about everything.
But if we choose to investigate this thought from your past and try to come up with some sort of explanation, I think it can best be summed up as “so what?” Why is having thoughts with little anxiety about one’s sexuality mutually exclusive from having unwanted intrusive ocd thoughts with lots of anxiety? In either case, the thoughts themselves are normal chemical events. The only thing that sets them apart is the reaction you have to them. The reason your reaction is different now is because now it appears to be working for the ocd. Perhaps the issue of sexuality had a somewhat different meaning in adolescence than it does in young adulthood. That would be normal.
Having a grain of truth in an ocd thought does not make a difference. There is a grain of truth that I may get a disease from the germs on this keyboard as I type this. This does not mean the thought is rational or worth responding to.
Ultimately, it is possible that it was ocd and it is possible that it wasn’t (or perhaps it was both!), but knowing this does not provide you with useful information for getting better. Therefore, trying to get a definitive answer should be looked at as a compulsion.
Thank you so much for your response. It has given me a lot to consider and absorb. It’s interesting – you say, “Having a grain of truth in an OCD thought does not make a difference,” while my OCD mind says, “Having a grain of truth in an OCD thought makes all the difference in the world and would be reason enough to send you spiraling into despair.” I know OCD sufferers often have all-or-nothing thinking; here that’s manifested as the belief that if I can label all my sexuality-related thoughts as OCD, and therefore not relevant to my true sexual identity, I’ll know I have nothing to worry about. It is hard – very, very hard – to think about it in the terms you suggest. Thanks again for your response.
I am delighted to have discovered this article. From what I have researched in comparison to my thoughts/feelings it seems I am suffering from HOCD.
I have been suffering from this for over four months now. I say suffer because it really is hugely trying. These ‘thoughts’ cropped literally out of nowhere and were HUGELY distressing. I consequently had huge panic attacks, I was constantly anxious and the thoughts were completely alien to me and essentially attacked who I was as I am happily engaged to my Fiance.
However, the problem I now have is that the thoughts are so constant, literally from the moment I wake to the moment I fall asleep I have almost got used to the thoughts which has led me to believe perhaps I am gay. It seems almost that I have conditioned myself to think I am gay and feel that I am compared to being straight! This OCD feels like it is shifting my outlook on who I am.
My question is whether this is possible?
Apologies for the length of this post I just feel really lost as having previously approached a counselor it seemed that I was suggesting I was just in denial.
Many thanks for your time.
Thank you for your comments, Jade. I’m glad the article resonated with you. I have frequently seen what you describe happen before. Since the issue at hand is neither homosexuality nor heterosexuality, but an intolerance of uncertainty, some people find themselves working on a “convincing” compulsion that is the reverse of their original response. The idea is that this will at least relieve them of obsessing, even if it means being something that is fundamentally untrue. It ultimately backfires and leads to more obsessive-compulsive behavior.
Another related phenomenon is something called a “backdoor spike” in which an HOCD sufferer gets upset by the notion that they are not upset ENOUGH about gay thoughts to still be straight.
If you have not already seen it, here is the link to Part Two of the article.
http://www.ocdla.com/blog/sexual-orientation-hocd-gay-ocd-treatment-2-1042#more-1042
In addition to Exposure and Response Prevention strategies for the fear of being gay, you might also benefit from using the same strategies to confront the idea of missing out on secretly being gay or never knowing for sure.
Congratulations on being engaged!
Hey, I really liked the article. The one thing that freaked me out was the whole one question you ask. I did things when I was younger (even like 13 and 14) with those of the same sex, but it was always because I liked how it felt, yet I never felt an attraction for the same sex whatsoever. I then went on to date a girl and completely forgot about those times until all this started. I have always been attracted to girls, but if I could enjoy gay sex due to the feel but not attraction does that make me gay? I’ve had anxiety for so many years, but this hocd is the absolute worst! Thank you for any response.
Thank you so much for your reply, you have given me alot of insight into what seems to be a living nightmare at the moment.
Glad you liked the article, James. I think you bring up a good example of how cunning ocd can be. It can take a question like “Do you like to have gay sex?” which I interpret as meaning something like “would you rather be having same-sex intercourse than having this conversation?” and slyly turns it into a question about whether or not gay sex is fundamentally enjoyable.
This is a trap. Of course sexual stimulation is sexually stimulating, so the issue of whether or not it is enjoyable is separate from whether or not you are oriented to prefer it. Something feeling good is a different concept from being sexually attracted to the person who helps you achieve that feeling.
Another point worth commenting on is that sexual behavior at the age you describe engaging in it is a fundamentally different experience than adult sexual behavior. It may involve the same mechanisms, but the psychosexual brain development is truly different. In short, experimentation is not orientation. Your OCD challenge is to accept that whatever happened, simply happened, and analyzing it to get certainty about its meaning is a compulsion.
I hope I am not being bothersome, but saying that would I rather be having it right now rather than this conversation still not prove it since it can be enjoyable and me still not be gay? Sorry for all the analysis. Also, I’m only 20 but always felt I was straight. You talked about hormones. Could that have changed my sexual orientation?
Thank you for any answers.
James, I think you are missing the point, which is that trying to “prove” your sexual orientation is the problem, not the solution. If you spent this much time trying to prove the sky was blue, it would start to seem green.
I have not heard of hormones changing an individual’s sexual orientation.
Dear Mr. Hershfield,
I enjoyed your article very much. I agree that calling this kind of OCD, HOCD is a slight misinterpretation. As for me it is better to call it Sexual Orientation Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (SOOCD).
I’m going through this nightmare since August 2009. My personality seems to change and nothing looks to be the same as before. But in heart I know that it’s a disorder, and that my personality remains the same. I hope.
In fact, I consider myself to be a gay man. In the past I had problems in relationships with other guys and it may be a real root of the whole matter at hand. In the last month of 2009 I was on the verge of collapse, I had terrible suicidal thoughts – I thought I can’t stand it longer. I wasn’t aware I had OCD then. When I realized it was OCD (in February 2010) I started to use supplements like inositol, B Vitamin Complex, Omega Fatty Acids and some more. I was very exhausted and couldn’t think clearly.
In fact, nowadays I know that I fear of becoming a straight man and I am doing a (I want to put it in good English) a sort of mind checking and reassuring, i.e. at first I deliberately popped up images of women genitals to find whether it aroused me – but now my mind does it in an automatic manner. But still it is a sort of self-thought-checking. It is as if I was in hell already.
I also sometimes went to heterosexual pornographic sites (which I hate), as a sort of compulsion for sure. I always admire the guys – but then, the anxiety comes into picture and again pictures of women come to my mind as way to reassure I am still gay. I much more prefered (and prefer) to see women in an unsexual manner. For me it’s horrible, disgusting and out of this world.
My blood test turned to be ok, with slightly too much sugar (112) for an empty stomach. I’m very reluctant to seek for psychologist/psychiatrist aid as I think I will be misunderstood. I live in Poland and I know that these doctors prescribe only chemical medicine. Sorry for the lengthy post.
Hi Luke, glad you liked the article.
It seems pretty clear that you are dealing with this form of OCD, which involves obsessive thoughts about sexual orientation, and using compulsive strategies in an effort to gain certainty about it. I wish we had a better name than HOCD, but I imagine some people might object to calling it SO OCD! The truth is all of these abbreviations are generally unhelpful since they all represent variations on the same problem (regardless of one’s actual sexual orientation).
It sounds like some of what you are doing involves exposure (watching straight porn), but not response prevention (you are trying to prove you are gay instead of accepting whatever thoughts happen), so the end result is sensitization instead of habituation.
You may gain a better understanding of treating this form of ocd in part 2 of the article (substitute the words “gay” for “straight”): http://www.ocdla.com/blog/sexual-orientation-hocd-gay-ocd-treatment-2-1042.
I’m not sure the distinction of OCD medication as somehow being more “chemical” than other things is a helpful one. The world is made up of chemicals, and some of them in certain combinations seem to help to reduce OCD symptoms. Since the issue you describe is an OCD problem, you may benefit from seeking common well-researched OCD treatments. In any case, without access to a suitable treatment provider in your area, you may have to educate yourself about Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) for OCD through some of the available books.
Jon, thank you for ascertaining me that the whole thing I experience is OCD – as I sensed.
In fact, as a child I had Tourette’s syndrome, as an adolescent I had major eating disorder, an episode of hypochondriasis and fear of germs (compulsive hand washing) and then I had (for 2 months in 2007 after breaking up with a guy) mild HOCD which subsided and a major relapse of this kind of OCD in 2009 which lasts to this day.
As for chemical drugs, I had in mind that they may be addictive but nonetheless I know they are helpful. OCD is a real cheater – and it wants one to believe in its lies…
And yes – thank you for the notion of CBT – I will look for books on it (I’ve read a lot of books on OCD now). But once again thank you very much for your help!
Hi there Jon, this is a very nice article…
I was wondering, does SOOCD make you feel like you like the thoughts?
Hi R, thanks for the question.
Thoughts are normal events that occur in the brain. Sometimes those thoughts coincide with certain feelings and sometimes this develops into a pattern we call “liking” a thought.
While by and large people experience OCD thoughts as consistently abhorrent, sometimes people experience feelings of ambivalence or even comfort by their presence. This is particularly common when one has spent a great deal of time analyzing how they are “supposed to” feel about a thought. The important point to remember is that evaluating your “liking” or “not liking” of thoughts is, in and of itself, a compulsive behavior that is not helpful.
Generally speaking, if you are saying you feel like you may like a certain thought, but then experience discomfort over that discovery, then you are still in the throes of an OCD problem.
thank you for this wonderful article !
i fight with hocd for about a year now….there were good but mostly just awful times ( like at the moment)
i was doing better but now ( i think through the bagdoor spike) i dont know who i am anymore…..my mind keeps telling me that i like this gay thoughts and that is the actual me and so on…….its very hard but i know that i have to keep strong and beat this disorder….
but ive a question too….mr. hershfield is it often the case that your clients get better and normal again ?
Hi Mohsen, glad you liked the article.
All of our clients start out normal! They are normal people who also happen to have Obsessive Compulsive Disorder which means certain thoughts appear problematic to them and their strategies for addressing this problem create a cycle that impairs their functioning. But I’ll answer your question in the spirit in which it was intended…
Yes. In my experience those clients who engage seriously in CBT, do their homework, and challenge themselves to resist compulsive behavior often see significant symptom reduction and relief.
Many people worry a great deal about the “actual” self being different than the present one. This is an OCD trap. You are a person who has thoughts. This remains true before, during, and after treatment. There is no other self. The issue you want to address is how frequent, intrusive, and powerful some of these thoughts present themselves.
Hi Jon,
I think I speak for everyone when I say that this article is the best article ever written on HOCD and we are all very grateful that you wrote it. It is priceless.
I myself have been suffering from this disorder since October 09 and have gotten dramatically better, although there are a few things I still struggle with and I’d appreciate your opinion on the matter.
I’ll keep it simple. When I hang out with my mates I feel gay and think that others think I’m gay because I’m out hanging with males and not females (self esteem issues and I’ve always been quite shy). Likewise, if I’m hanging out with some girls who are friends I feel like people think I’m a “girlfriend” to them, hence gay. I can see how absurd this way of thinking is but I’m not sure how to change it.
I’m sorry if this is written in a way that can’t be accurately interpreted. It’s a strange situation but I’d like to know how I can re frame my mind and stop worry about this. Thoughts?
Thank you
hi, I would just like to say this is the best post iv’e seen on OCD.
However, the last few days I have 3 main worries:
1. I have spiked for nearly 4 days with hardly any moments where I feel straight
2. This is my only obsession and i only discovered HOCD websites after my first couple of days of feeling this way so maybe I could have given myself this in a moment of denial?
3. I snooze in a morning with strong feeling i’m actually gay until i wake up enough to freak out
My mind won’t stop saying i’m rejected it and i’m constantly looking at men and analyzing and sometimes finding some attraction.
sorry for the long post, but its taken over my life.
Reece, wow, that’s some compliment! Thank you for the kind words.
I think the first thing you need to come to terms with in regards to the situation you described is that you cannot win. It is not possible to win that OCD game because the rules are created by OCD and can change without warning or explanation. So trying to win, which in this case would be trying to spend the “right” amount of time with people of the “right” gender while thinking only the right thoughts, is a strategy that will fail.
A better strategy would be to hang out with people you like to hang out with and accept that your OCD may also wish to hang out with them from time to time. So if you’re hanging out with girls and your OCD says this makes you gay, just say hello to the OCD and offer it a metaphorical seat at the table without addressing the irrelevant question of whether or not you are gay. Then if at some point you are hanging out with guy friends and the OCD says this makes you gay, you can take an “oh you again” approach and accept that these are thoughts which happen to be occurring at this moment. If you can learn to allow thoughts to arrive wherever they happen to arrive, you will find that they are less likely to demand that they be invited to every party.
Hi Andrew, thanks for your comment.
1. I don’t know what it means to “feel straight” or “feel gay”, but it sounds like you are dealing with a lot of intrusive thoughts and mental rituals right now. If you are trying to feel a certain way, that should be looked at as a compulsion that is fueling the problem.
2. Late onset OCD is not uncommon, and HOCD being the first major obsession is also not uncommon. However, though it is not always true, I have encountered a lot of people who say they never had OCD before and then come to realize that they just had poor insight about some behaviors in their past which were obsessive-compulsive.
3. I’m not sure what you’re saying here but people often report OCD being in high gear first thing in the morning.
You didn’t mention anything about treatment, but it sounds like there is some depression alongside the OCD and this needs to be treated. If you do not already have a therapist, I recommend going to http://www.ocfoundation.org where they have a good list of therapists who treat OCD.
I understand I guess im just really wanting your professional opinion on the matter by what you said meaning can you enjoy it via feeling but as long as there is no physical attraction are you straight?
Bsically I’m trying to make sure its ocd
Thank you so much for your reply.
Yes my life is just constant checking and mentally trying to solve the situation, sometimes this takes up around 12 hours a day. This has being going on for four months now and has gradually got worse.
At first it seemed like textbook ocd, moments were i felt total relief through reassurance to moments were it seemed i had a total mist in front of me and can’t tell whats real and whats not.
Recently it seems to be more like 4 bad days to 1 good day, for example since i read your article i seem 70% better, not far from being myself again and my female attraction was returning, but tomorrow I could go into total relapse. I have also suffered from panic attacks were I went to hospital believing i was going to die recently, but these seemed to have gone away.
Before this i was very confident in my sexuality, but overtime lost all confidence around girls, yet had a strong desire to have a girlfriend.
It may be hard to tell but do you think this is ocd? and i relise i need to see someone soon, i just dont think i can sit in front of my doctor (im english!)
James, needing to know for sure that something is OCD is no different than needing to know for sure that you are straight or gay, which is the problem that you have, which is your OCD.
It would not be helpful for you to have me participate in the reassurance compulsions. My recommendation is that you check out http://www.ocfoundation.org and get more information on the disorder to help you understand how your analysis is fueling the problem.
Andrew, if reading anything I wrote made you feel 70% better, my guess is you have OCD and should be seeing an OCD specialist for treatment. If your doctor is not an OCD specialist, then he is not the one you should sit and talk with about this.
The UK more than likely has a few therapists who understand CBT for OCD well, and some American OCD specialists (including the OCD Center of LA) provide international treatment via Skype.
what is the difference between internalized homophobia and HOCD?
after finding out about it. it has brought me so much sadness and i just don’t know who i am anymore.
sometimes hocd feels so real and i feel as though i am in denial and i really am a lesbian..then i go on to believe i have internalized homophobia because of that and then a few days later i am straight again. i just don’t know how to feel anymore! whenever i say i am straight, it’s as if a voice in my head says no you’re not – you are in denial when hocd is at it’s worse…but when i don’t think about hocd i am attracted to men emotionally and physically. it’s just when i do think about it.. i just think that all those feelings are not real and i’m just in denial it’s so horrible.
Hi Kate, internalized homophobia is a term used to describe the experience of being homosexual and hating oneself for it because of beliefs about homosexuality being hateful. HOCD is a manifestation of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder identified by the presence of unwanted intrusive thoughts and mental or physical strategies for addressing them which impair functioning. In other words, one is a theory addressing the experience of the closeted homosexual and the other is a well understood and treatable clinical disorder.
As you noted, when you are not obsessing on the subject, you appear to feel attracted to members of the opposite sex. When you are obsessing about it, you are trapped in a futile attempt to be sure you feel a certain way about certain thoughts. The best approach would be to resist this compulsion to try to “know how you feel” and instead work on accepting that the thoughts, feelings, and sensations that you experience are not threats or calls to action.
Many people with ocd report to me that they feel they are in denial or “faking it” when they allow themselves to touch dirty doorknobs and not wash their hands or have thoughts about hurting loved ones and resist avoiding family members. This form of ocd is not unique to the ocd experience. Accept that you feel fake or in denial and that knowing for sure what your feelings mean is not the most important thing in your life just because ocd says it is.
Jon, I wrote to you earlier. I’ve got one additional question regarding the exposure and response prevention therapy. From your professional point of view how long does it last to become insensitive to the thoughts which appear in one’s mind, which oppose one’s natural and acceptable ideas? I believe hocd is very often caused when a trigger makes us vulnerable and we become oversensitized to a particular idea which we cannot accept and stand. In fact, it may be caused by various factors as you stated before. But is there average time after which EBT ‘wipes out’ the problem. And, as you wrote, in my case response prevention is about acccepting the thoughts – is there anything else to it, or only facing (exposure) and accepting?
Hi Luke, the speed at which someone habituates to triggering material is dependent on the consistency with which they engage in the exposure and their commitment to resisting the compulsive response. This can take hours, days, or months depending on how the treatment is being applied and what amounts of anxiety the sufferer is willing to face.
While mindfulness and accepting the thoughts as they are may initially feel like an exposure, effective ERP is going to have to include direct and intentional confrontation with things that will trigger the thoughts (pictures, places, videos, etc.). You can read more about treatment in part two of this blog at http://www.ocdla.com/blog/sexual-orientation-hocd-gay-ocd-treatment-2-1042.
Thank you very much for the answer!
Hello, thanks for posting this great article! MY HOCD came out after I broke up with my first boyfriend. When it first started it was really bad, I have sought out treatment which has helped me a bit but my HOCD always comes back when I am having issues with the opposite sex. Once the issues start with a man, the questioning begins “Am I gay? Should I be dating women?” It also hits when I compare myself to my girlfriends who seem to be attracted to so many men. For me, I am attracted to a certain type of man but not every man and most of the time my attraction increases with a man after getting to know him which in turn makes me desire him more. I know that we are all wired differently but I wish that I didn’t have to deal with this. It is frustrating and most likely holding me back from many healthy fulfilling relationships.
Hi Jen, thanks for your post. I think this is a very common construct in this form of ocd. Relationships are complicated to begin with, so when you add ocd to the mix, it is likely to promote thinking about relationships in very ocd ways. One such ocd way is jumping to the conclusion that relationships not being perfect must say something about one’s sexual orientation. This is a trap to get you performing compulsions trying to prove that it isn’t. Simply allowing yourself to engage in the debate is enough to get you sucked into an ocd loop.
Interestingly, you describe your friends being attracted to “so many men” and yourself only being attracted to certain types and this attraction growing with the relationship growing. You sound healthier to me and more “normal” than your friends in this area.
Hi there Jon, I wrote to you earlier before
I know very well my orientation and i know very well that i want a relationship with a girl.
The problem is that sometimes, i feel nothing towards women and that there is an increased feeling over guys.
It completly bothers me. There is no fear or anxiety with it but i am just bothered. I dont want anything to do with men, well romantically and sexually.
Any comments sir?
R,
It sounds like you are over-attending to what you feel about women or men and making a choice to associate this with sexual orientation. Rather than devoting mental resources to assessing how much or little you feel in response to men or women, you will want to work on accepting that whatever you feel is whatever you feel and is not intrinsically important to your orientation or anything else. If you are identifying that you are bothered by it, this suggests a belief that the feelings should not be as they are. My suggestion is to approach them as merely there and let yourself off the hook from needing to determine their value.
To use your terms, sometimes feeling nothing toward one thing and an increased feeling toward another thing does not merit the special attention your ocd is giving it. The experience of not always being fascinated by something you often are (i.e. feelings toward women), as well as the experience of sometimes being fascinated by something you rarely consider (feelings toward men) – these are normal events.
Hi Jon,
For 8 months I have been suffering from hopefully HOCD. Everyday i am in a constant battle with myself. These thoughts and urges started last June after my grandfather passed away. I am still depressed about my grandfather passing to this day. But this whole obsession started after watching a tv show where my favorite character who was a male found out he was gay. I get this weird feeling when i see a female i can not tell if it is attraction or anxiety. I would never do anything with a female. I am only attracted to men but this whole obsession is getting to me so much that my grades in college slipped from A/B range to D/F’s. Ever since i was little I liked older men like 25 years older than me because boys back then looked to much like girls. Last year I had a huge crush on my professor. So what i am getting at here is this article helped me somewhat understand what I am going through. I have had past obsessions like am I pregnant or do i have diabetes , etc.
hello,
first off, thanks for the article. second, i have all the symptoms of SO-ocd, and have been diagnosed as ocd from a LMHP and psychiatrist.
i am 41 and have been thru this cycle of hell 4 different times. first, when i was in my late teens twice (lasted for about a week or two). then, after sailing thru my 20s with no problem, when i was 31, i was hit hard by this. i was sure i would turn homosexual. i attempted suicide and was baker acted and put in a mental hospital. to shorten this rather long story, i concluded that i was turning gay and just gave up and said “whatever happens, happens” and lived my life one day at a time. well the whole gay fear (that was 24/7 for 6 months) just faded away over time. i never really asked why, just was glad it was gone. then in late 2007, bang! it happened again. for months i feared i was gonna turn gay. and, again, it faded away over time. but that time i read about OCD and gay ocd. when it happened again in 2009, i went to a LMHP, and she said it was ocd (without me feeding her lies so she would tell me what i wanted to hear); after being baker acted again because of this, i was yet again in a mental hospital and a psychiatrist told me it was ocd. it has been a real problem for me to believe i’m not going to turn gay again lately. i’m just like everyone else symptom wise. life long, raging flaming heterosexual, numerous girl crushes, lusting over them, having sex with girls is always great (unless this is happening then im sexually dead). i’ve NEVER been aroused by gay sex or had a crush on a guy. just this fear that i will like it someday.
i guess i’m wanting to ask, is this something that can go and come back numerous times? and am i too old for it to be ocd? i have an obsessive personality. it’s been noted to me by friends and family. but i’m getting tired of this happening.
thanks for any response and sorry for the rambling post…
Hi Alexandra,
It definitely sounds like you are dealing with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and are falling into the trap of over-attending to thoughts and feelings about sexual orientation.
It’s not unusual for a triggering event that may cause depression (such as the loss of a loved one) to coincide with a flare-up in OCD symptoms. I say “flare up” rather than “onset” because it sounds like your previous avoidance of age-appropriate boys who looked girlish to you may possibly have also been a part of this fear of gay thoughts.
It sounds like you should be getting treatment if you have access to it. The best treatment for OCD is Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.
Eric, it’s not uncommon for ocd symptoms to wax and wane throughout one’s life, and age is certainly not a factor in this regard.
It’s worth noting that the first time your symptoms faded away was when you were taking a mindful approach and saying “whatever happens, happens”. It is when you start treating the thoughts as intrinsically important that you start to tumble into an obsessive-compulsive cycle.
I encourage you to get Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) and work on changing the way you think about and respond to your thoughts. People don’t “turn” into anything.
This was a great article Mr. Hershfield and I appreciate you writing it for folks like me who have been suffering from this.
I’ve been dealing with this for 3 years off and on and it has been quite painful. It started out when I was at a Spencer gifts and saw a poster of a girl that was very sexual. I don’t really know if I thought she was attractive/pretty or what but from that point on, I freaked out and have not been able to get this idea that I’m gay out of my head.
I researched for months on weather I was gay or not but during that time, I also found out that this happens to more people than I thought and that it was called HOCD. I have been to a therapist and although he said he was trained in CBT, his suggestions never worked for me. I just remember him telling me “It’s a sexual picture, of course you’re gonna think about sexual things, it doesn’t mean you’re attracted to the girl.” He would joke about me being gay which made it worse. In fact, I printed out a few articles about HOCD and gave it to him so he can help me better but he always just “talked” to me about it.
I left therapy and decided that I will do this on my own. After countless books and CBT exercises, the only thing that really helped me was “brainlock” which taught a person with intrusive thoughts to use the four methods and basically change what you are doing and just let the thoughts pass during obsessions/anxiety.
I have never had this problem before. I’ve always been attracted to men ( I’m a girl) and always wanted the marriage and the kids with them. I would spend hours trying to remember if I was attracted to any girls when I was younger. There are times where I would question that…like was I and didn’t know it?? I started having GAD a couple of months before I was diagnosed with MS. From GAD I had specific obsessions like not loving my then boyfriend or being gay. The thoughts have me so depressed that I don’t even want to get out of bed some days.
My boyfriend always says that he will not feed into my obsession but I can’t help it, it always sucks me back in. I’ve always been a firm believer that you cannot just turn gay and that people know that they’re gay at a very young age. But again, it’s never enough to help me get over this. No matter how hard I try, more questions come up. Its very frustrating. I’m 27 and was diagnosed with the MS in 2007,do you think that there might be a correlation between anxiety/ocd and MS?
I know a lot of it is that I don’t want to lose having relationships with MEN.
P.S. sorry for the long story…
Hi RAD, thanks for sharing your story. There actually have been some studies showing a greater prevalence of OCD in people with MS. You may be able to look up some of the research online.
You mentioned that simply talking about the HOCD was not effective for you. What I didn’t see in your post is any reference to Exposure w/ Response Prevention (ERP), which is an important part of treatment. This will mean confronting the things that trigger your unwanted gay thoughts and resisting the compulsive ritual of trying to convince yourself you are straight. As long as you demonstrate to your ocd brain that you have something to prove, it will present the thoughts to you as debatable ideas.
Hello,
Thanks for your response! I always wondered about that because I used to worry about things ( parents getting sick, not passing a class, etc) but never about this kind of stuff. It started out with one obsession and now it’s this one. I guess I’m trying to say is that I might of had some tendencies of ocd but never like this. I always thought that it might be the leasons in the brain caused by the ms. I’m sure that has something to do with it.
But when conducted my own therapy, I used a book by Jonathan S. Abramowitz PhD called Getting Over OCD: A 10-Step Workbook for Taking Back Your Life (The Guilford Self-Help Workbook Series) Getting Over OCD: A 10-Step Workbook for Taking Back Your Life and used some of the suggestions like I used to record trigger words such as gay, bi, etc on a tape recorder and listen to them over and over on my way to work which helped a lot. Now I’m trying not to avoid reading or watching things about homosexuality like for example Tyra had a show about homosexuals and people who are just “gay for pay.”Although I watched the whole show, it didn’t bother me at first but later on in the day, it crept up and it triggered my anxiety.Its like when you’re in a panic mode, it’s really hard to apply the the 4 steps of brain lock..but I guess if you’re fighting it, it’s going to put up a hell of a fight. I’ve also been noticing other forms of obsession like being afraid that the OCD ( which I keep questioning if it actually is OCD because my therapist didn’t really do a formal test or anything, he just asked a couple of questions ) can turn in to a mental illness like Bi-polar disorder or schizophrenia…it’s a never ending mental battle. Of course, I was just done with my master’s thesis and stress really triggered this whole thing. Again sorry for the long post but my question is what is considered a compulsive ritual if it’s really almost like pure O?
Hi – I wanted to post as I’ve had a lot of anxiety for the past 9 months or so. I used to think that I was bi-sexual, but mainly straight. This was becuase I felt physically, emotionally and sexually attracted to women but from the age of 17 had occasionally had same sex fantasies. Also, from the age of 18 to 21 I had a few homosexual encounters. So… I felt absolutely fine about this and continued on my normal, everyday life. I liked women and never doubted that fact. I had a load of girlfriends and eventually got married to a girl I love. All was well.
Then one day I woke up and a voice in my head was asking ‘What if you’re gay?’. I thought about it. Started arguing it over in my head. Over and over and over. And unfortunately it’s never really left since. I go round seeking an answer to the question of my orientation almost endlessly.
I’ve tried self applying some CBT priniciples and they have worked for periods. Unfortunately sometimes something will happen which will cause massive anxiety and set off the spiral of questioning in my head again. I’ve also had various checking compulsions such as looking at guys and wondering if I think they’re attractive. I’ve also seeked reassurance from coming out stories, trying to match my own story to sometinhg else, masturbating to straight porn regularly etc. I feel lost in my own head and all I want is to go back to being me again.
I wonder if I’m having a sexual identity crisis due to m past experiences. I think it’s a form of HOCD but can’t be sure. Sometimes I think I’m deluding myself and just hoping it is. But the anxiety and thought cycle seem to be inextricably linked. Sorry, I’ve rambled and probably not made much sense. But I was wondering, is it possible to bi Bi or have had same sex experiences and get this form of OCD or is it necessarily denial?
Thanks, and apologies if I’ve spiked anyone.
Sorry, to add to my already long post but I would add that I had a few anxiety issues (panic attacks etc.) prior to this onset of rumination. I also had taken a drug called mephedrone prior to its onset which I think may have helped spark it off. I think I’ve also had the olfactory anxiety thing for a few years without realising it(whereby I thought I could smell myself but no-one else could). I don’t know. Maybe I’m just clasping at straws and hoping it’s HOCD because I love my wife and don’t want to be without her. Again, sorry for the rambling.
Hi,Thank you for the article,my issue is this-I obsess about being gay constantly.My feeling is that I am suppressing my homosexuality rather than suffering from HOCD for example when masturbating I start off thinking of women but at the point of climax the image is of a man??!!
Hi RAD,
It sounds like you have gotten some good info on treating OCD on your own. The term “pure o” is actually a misnomer because there are still compulsions happening – they are just taking the form of mental ritual instead of physical ritual.
For example, you described anxiety over watching the gay-themed tv show creeping up on you after the fact. What you might not have been aware of was engaging in compulsions called mental checking or mental review. When you dig up the memory of a triggering event and replay it in an attempt to identify if you are responding to it the “right” way, then you are doing a compulsion. If the objective of your mental behavior is to resolve something, figure it out, identify it as ok (or not ok), then you are doing a compulsion.
The goal should be to accept whatever thoughts come into your head as being thoughts, and not necessary to respond to with analysis.
Dang,
It sounds like you are pretty clear about what compulsions you have engaged in and how they contribute to your obsessions. Lots of “straight” people have gay thoughts and gay fantasies, but whether you are straight, bi, or gay is not really important. You’re saying you don’t want to leave your wife. So don’t. If this means you are in denial of some perceived “true self” then so be it.
Right now you want to be with your wife, so you sound pretty sure that you’re happy with your wife. So stop doing compulsions and accept that you are going to have gay thoughts and never know for sure if you’d be happier with a man. It’s entirely possible that I’d be happier as a lion tamer, but today I rather enjoy being a therapist.
Pat,
People have all kinds of intrusive thoughts at the point of climax, particularly if they are over-attending to their thoughts about climaxing the “right” way.
Identifying and valuing the presence of an unwanted thought as being an unacceptable thought sounds like OCD to me.
Hi John, I would really like some clarification, specifically regarding my situation.
I have always been straight my whole life. I have never dreamed or lusted over guys, only guys. I would always get nervous when talking to a girl, and get extremely aroused even when I hugged one or for example if a girl sat on my lap. I have done “gay stuff” with guys before but it was merely just joking stuff such as play humping or calling each other hot. I never got any pleasure from this.
Is it possible for homosexuality to have been sub concious or dortmant in me? I have lost all my attraction for girls; I can’t get aroused or get an erection over girls or to porn and I have no real experience with one.
Also, does anxiety always need to be followed up with depression? I have tried to accept the thoughts, however I just cant. Before I would get really depressed and anxious due to the thoughts, however I still get anxious its just really mild. The thoughts are there still but I don’t really get anxious.
Also, is it possible that I am bi-sexual? I have also been worrying about this. I cannot get aroused over guys or girls even though I try to check (with guys) or want to (with girls). My whole life desire was to be with women, I’ve always had crushes on them. Now when I ask myself this question, I don’t know what to conclude.
Also, I don’t even know if I have HOCD! I have been obessesing about it for months and suffer from all or most of the symptoms and can relate to other HOCD’ers but I have never been oficially diagnosed and this seems so real to me. It’s not what I want
Joshua,
I’m not in a position to formally diagnose you from here, and certainly not in a position to tell you what sexual orientation you are. What I can say is that it appears you are spending a lot of time checking your response to men and women and this checking behavior is a common compulsion in HOCD.
To your question about dormant or subconscious homosexuality – I do not believe this exists. If it does exist, it requires a psychological phenomenon I have never seen – to derive pleasure from something while having no idea you are deriving pleasure from it. What is more common is for some people who have homosexual desires to make efforts to avoid or neutralize those desires for cultural or strategic reasons. There is nothing subconscious about this.
Can I make the “turn” from being straight to gay? It may sound like a dumb question, but I have been attracted to girls all my life, I don’t see how this can be happening.
I don’t want to be gay because I’ve always desired women and being with a man wouldn’t be right… Social reasons in regards to my family and society come into play as well but its a very small part, maybe 25 percent of the problem.
These thoughts are seeming to become more and more real, and causing me stress. I go through mood swings and they are constantly on my mind…
Hi John,
I keep reading the responses you give to other people and try to get information about myself. I have three questions. First about the response you gave above to Joshua: How do homosexual desires look like? I know it sounds a bit stupid. But I really want to know. Second, is it possible to find out if I am truelly homosexual but trying to neutralize it or if I am just having obsessions about it? And the third question is really important for me: Is it possible to be obsessing about this issue while it is really true? It is constantly on my mind and causes a lot of distress. But could it be that it is true though?
I hope you can help me.
Hey Jon,
I’ve been struggling with HOCD for a while now. It started last October and has been coming and going. The initial thought of “I might be gay” came when I tried getting back together with an ex-girlfriend, and I had lost attraction to her in just three days. The main reasons I feel like the HOCD is attacking me is because of that, and also because I’ve never been too into porn. I’ve watched it occasionally (usually lesbian) and been turned on by it, but I usually masturbate to pictures of women I find attractive, and the women I find attractive are usually slightly chubby. I’ve always had sort of a fetish for a girl with a bit of belly (not BIG girls, but not rail thin). I also have never thought vaginas are all that attractive. I would no question have sex with a girl, but the thought of a vagina doesn’t always turn me on. I’ve started wondering why it is that I don’t like heterosexual porn that much, and I’m incredibly confused by it. I’ve always been attracted to girls, and I’ve never gotten hard thinking/looking at a man, but for some reason, that’s not enough evidence for me to shut these thoughts out of my head. I used to have no problem seeing a movie with a gay sex scene, I’d just think it was funny, but now I would freak out if I ever saw one. I honestly feel like if I found out I was gay, I wouldn’t be able to live with myself. I always see articles that say “people with HOCD are disgusted by gay thoughts”, and I used to be, but I’ve had HOCD for so long that I can’t even tell if I’m disgusted by them or not.
Sorry for being all over the place, I just wanted to try to get my thoughts out there. Thanks for the article. I appreciate any further advice you can give me.
Thanks,
Perry
Wow, reading the last few posts between April and May sound exactly like what I’m going through. What really sucks is that even though I have every symptom of HOCD, and have been diagnosed with social anxiety disorder and having irrational thoughts (is this the same as OCD?), I can’t help but question and doubt myself. I’ve always loved women. I’ve always been scared of what people think of me, for as long as I can remember, but I’m sure that’s a part of my social anxiety.
I’ve had little things here and there that are definitely OCD, but I’ve never been fully diagnosed with it. Back in middle school, I had this irrational fear that I was going to kill myself, but I never had any intention of actually doing it. It eventually went away after a year and a half and I have no idea how. I wish my HOCD would do this…
Perry, Joshua, and Hannah have all said things that I can relate to 100%. It’s horrible knowing that your brain still tries to mess with you even though all the signs point to OCD. I wish I could have my attraction to women back. I just want to be happy again…
Also, I took the Pure-O test on this site, and even though it says it’s unofficial, it still has to count for something, right?? It said if you checked off more than 7, than you there’s a high probability you have Pure-O. I checked somewhere between 15-17…. Yikes.
Joshua, I don’t know if people “turn” gay. It is not something I have ever seen happen, but the point is you are going to have to live with the uncertainty. You report not wanting to be gay. So whatever thoughts are happening need to be looked at as thoughts and not necessarily mandates to change your sexual orientation. I would look instead at changing the ocd behaviors and getting cognitive behavioral therapy.
Hi Hannah,
>>>How do homosexual desires look like? I know it sounds a bit stupid. But I really want to know.
—It’s not that it’s stupid, so much as it is a question only a heterosexual would ask. What do heterosexual desires look like?
>>>Second, is it possible to find out if I am truelly homosexual but trying to neutralize it or if I am just having obsessions about it?
—If you are saying that you really like having homosexual sex and fantasizing about homosexual things, but are afraid of being judged by a hetero-normative society, then I would suggest seeing a an LGBT specialist (someone who works with sexual orientation issues). If you are saying that you are having intrusive thoughts about being a homosexual and you want it to stop, then I would suggest getting CBT for your OCD. If you are saying that you need to know for sure which of the two things are happening and won’t rest until you are positive you got the right answer, then I would also suggest you get cbt for your ocd.
>>>And the third question is really important for me: Is it possible to be obsessing about this issue while it is really true? It is constantly on my mind and causes a lot of distress. But could it be that it is true though?
—You will not like this answer, but anything is possible. The problem is in your internal response to the question. If it is constantly on your mind, and it is true, then presumably you are telling yourself something about it which is causing you distress. If you are having gay thoughts and they seem genuine and true to who you are, then it would be interesting to know what there is to be distressed about.
If an ocd sufferer with contamination fears tells me that they want to know if it is possible that they will get a disease from touching a doorknob and not washing their hands, what would be an appropriate response? Certainly it is possible, but since they want to use doors and doors have doorknobs, some acceptance is going to have to take place. This acceptance does not mean they will get a disease from a doorknob. Accepting the possibility that your obsessive thoughts are true does not make them true.
Perry,
The HOCD wants you to explain your experience of heterosexuality, but explaining it only sends the message to your brain that your orientation is open for debate. Not everyone is into porn and many men fail to look at vaginas and think “that looks beautiful.” Frankly I don’t know how women refrain from laughing when looking at penises for that matter. Anyway, it’s irrelevant to your orientation.
>>>I always see articles that say “people with HOCD are disgusted by gay thoughts”
—I think this statement can be misleading. There are many different forms of anxiety and discomfort and only one of them is disgust. One of the problems with ocd is tunnel vision, meaning you are looking at this statement in one direction only. If people with HOCD are “disgusted” by gay thoughts, and you are not always 100% disgusted, then you must be gay. This is distorted logic. People without HOCD are generally indifferent to gay thoughts, not disgusted, because they don’t see the thoughts as particularly important. Does this mean that all people without obsessive compulsive disorder are gay? No.
My recommendation is that you get cognitive behavioral therapy and start treating your ocd.
Daniel,
>>> What really sucks is that even though I have every symptom of HOCD, and have been diagnosed with social anxiety disorder and having irrational thoughts (is this the same as OCD?)…
—Though technically separate diagnoses in the DSM-IV, social anxiety disorder is essentially a form of obsessive compulsive disorder in which the primary obsession is with being evaluated negatively. This has always seemed a somewhat silly distinction to me since many people who are compulsive handwashers also fear being evaluated negatively for not washing responsibly.
You describe a lot of common OCD symptoms. Perhaps it is time to seek out a cognitive behavioral therapist who specializes in ocd, get formally assessed, get treated and get better.
I have been through this hocd once before and now it is back i am struggling and i feel like i just wanna give up and accept my loses. I dont wanna be gay and i have never had any intercourse with a man and i dont think i could actually go through with it but i have these thoughts and they are not gay sex but they are kissing a man and im constantly asking my self if i find that man attractive. I have a wife and a kid and before all this started back up me and my wife have sex and i didnt worry about it but right now my thoughts are all messed up. can hocd make you think gay things like have gay thoughts. i tryed looking at gay pron and i gaged but then i went into thinking was i gaging becasue i made myself or becasue i was grossed out.and also i find myslef watching how i sit and talk and walk not wanting to do any of that gay but i am not gay or i dont think. im so confused i need help
Andrew,
I don’t know if it can give you any peace of mind but what you are describing is exactly the way dreadful HOCD works. I’ve had this form of OCD for almost 3 years now and I may assure you that watching porn isn’t helpful at all – watching porn is in fact reassurance seeking, that is – a compulsion – and it can cause your anxiety to grow, for example by causing the so called groinal response.
You cannot stop the thoughts – but what you can stop are the actions, or compulsions which are done particularly to alleviate the anxiety but later on the anxiety returns and is even worse. I know that HOCD is often the “Pure-O” (Purely Obsessional) OCD but even in this kind of OCD there are compulsions but they are covert (in contrast to typical OCD, where the compulsions are overt) mental acts like constant ruminations, mental checking etc. I think one of the most difficult things in HOCD is the fact that very often the obsessions and compulsions mingle and confuse us to a level in which we can’t tell which is obsession and which is compulsion.
You may find that interesting because I’m suffering from HOCD but am gay myself and because of HOCD (sometimes I call it reverse HOCD) I doubt everyting(although I don’t want to – but the disorder makes me to), question it, fear that I may become a heterosexual guy and my life has become a real living hell. This disorder is indeed kind of ironic – you fear of being/becoming someone you don’t want to be. So, no matter what is the sexual orientation of a person, HOCD will try to question it, confuse a person, put disgusting ideas against a person’s will and so on.
I wish you good luck!
Andrew, the way in which you are looking to the gay porn is backfiring because, as Luke said, it is only reassurance seeking. There is a role pornographic imagery can have in treatment, but it needs to be done methodically and without compulsions. Over-attending to how you sit or walk is also compulsive. Right now the behaviors you are engaging in are designed to convince yourself that you are straight. Since you already appear to be straight, your brain is responding to your behavior as if it is supposed to be promoting debate about your orientation. The best way to get past this is to get cognitive behavioral therapy from an ocd specialist who can help you identify your distorted thinking and stop doing compulsions.
Just a question. I’ve suffered from HOCD but it plays on the fact that you can be aroused (or rather remind me of sex, porn, etc) by sexual things/body parts, coming from both the same or opposite sex. It bothers me so much because I know i’m not actually interested in gay sex, being with another woman in any way, nor have I ever been. Is this normal?
So frustrated with this disease!
Nancy, as you noted, it is possible to be aroused by sexual concepts and images that are not exclusively within your own preferred orientation. The awareness of this is not your problem. It is your reaction to these thoughts that makes them threatening. Having gay thoughts or fantasies does not make you gay any more than having aggressive thoughts and fantasies makes you a professional boxer. It is normal to have thoughts and not wish them to be manifested as behaviors.
Jon–
Although I sit here, depersonalized and having found myself unable to focus or remember well (presumably as a result of having had this anxiety for months), I have painstakingly read the article, each comment, and each of your responses. I am actually in awe. As someone who has been going through this for months, and still dreads the memory of that night in 11th grade that was lying in bed and that first “what if i am…: thought came in with intense anxiety, someone who goes through everything that was described here–and I don’t think I have to further elaborate…anything i can think of has been covered—really, I am in awe. I do not know if you are getting paid to host this forum and meticulously respond to each post or not, but it does not even really matter. Althhough this means nothing, I consider myself a pretty “manly man”…yet, there are tears literally strolling down my cheeks. I am so appreciative of what you’ve done here and I really think I can speak on behalf of the rest of this community that, given the fact that relatively not so much has been written HOCD in psychoanalytic literature, how methodically, how thoroughly, and how sensitively you have responded to each post…it is inspiring. If you do ultimately become a lion tamer…then that is one lucky pride of lions. I do not know if it is a credit to your field, your education, your background, your parents…but you are undoubtedly a remarkable person; someone who so clearly loves being in the business of making another person feel better. There were times as I scrolled through this all that I began giggling, not because something was at all humorous but because the reasonableness, the sensitivity, and the way you addressed things… and because seeing someone else literally type out your symptoms…is quite remarkable…quite elegantly a reminder of how similar we all are…really what an experience. I read this entire thread from top to bottom and felt temporarily launched out of my bout of depersonalization. Of course, I too could have, and do have questions…both gerneral and specific to my situation, but even before I could think of asking, I must, on behalf of everyone, congratulate you for being…above all… an excellent person; a reward perhaps as atypical as it is profound. I used to love writing, and this comment was the first thing I have decided to go venture and write, despite feeling depersonalized and detached, in about 3 months.
Jon-When fielding these comments and mechanically responding to each person’s situation becomes ever exhausting, demanding, and emotionally draining, know that if there is one thing I can be sure of nowadays, one thing I feel it is important to remind you of…it is that you are seriously helping a lot of people.
And for that I thank you.
Dreejk,
Thank you so much for your thoughtful comment. It is hugely rewarding for me to know that I am making a difference and I really respect your emotional generosity in this feedback.
Best,
Jon
Dear Jon, Hi I just was wondering if I have hOCD or not. I have only dated men in the past and I’m 34 years old and have felt confident that I was straight up until 30. One former boyfriend noticed that I was attracted to women but said it was no big deal and we were fine. However within the last 2 or three years I’ve had bigger doubts about my orientation and feel that I might be changing. I don;t know what to do about it since I’ve been dating a man who loves me and would probably accept me even if I was really gay. But I don’t know if my problem is I’m having trouble feeling attracted to him or feeling attracted to all men ingeneral. This whole thing is mentally exhausting and painful. I’ll try to accept myself, if I only knew who I really was. The idea of having to look for a woman makes me want to cry. Thanks for all your help.
Maria,
Sounds like ocd to me. First, it’s important to remember that straight people have gay thoughts. Finding other women attractive when you don’t typically identify as same-sex oriented does not make you gay. It makes you a straight woman who also finds some women attractive. The ocd says you have to know with 100% certainty what it means that you have these occasionally conflicting thoughts. You can circumvent the whole thing by letting go of the idea that they are conflicting.
When you frame the notion of being gay as “having to look for a woman” you pretty clearly identify a distinction here from homosexuality, in which you would YEARN to look for a woman. But this evidence is insufficient for your ocd because all evidence is.
If you seek treatment for your ocd, you will want cognitive behavioral therapy and would likely do some form of imaginal exposure in which you confront the idea that you are secretly in denial and will “have to” go find a woman. In the meantime, rather than over-attend to who you feel attracted to when, where, and why, try to accept in any present moment that you are feeling whatever you are feeling and it is not necessary to define yourself.
Dear Jon,
Thanks so much for your response. I thought about something else I’d like to ask you about. I guess it’s just the nature of this “doubting disease”. I’ve heard about women who were married but then realized they were gay all along. Then they left their husbands for another woman or also that men have left their wives after years of repression and then finally found the man of their dreams. Did this mean they repressed that they were gay all along or did they actually shift in their preferences? If they did make a shift this is diconcerting, especially if I have HOCD, because then I feel like if I’m in denial maybe shouldn’t make a commitment to a man for now until I’m sure because wouldn;t want to cause him problems in the future. I feel lately very uncomfortable around female friends, maybe they are spiking the unwanted thoughts and much calmer in the company of men. I’m having trouble commiting in my current relationship with a man and am not sure if it’s the glitchy thoughts and HOCD, real lesbian tendencies or just not in the right relationship all together. There are times in the day when I feel normal like myself and other times very anxious about these thoughts about being with women even worse are thoughts about close friends.
Thanks again for any feedback.
Hi Jon,
I researched up a article on the internet discussing freudian’s latent homosexuality. And some of the symptoms sound quite alot like hocd symptoms. eg. “fear of being gay…” and etc. I am so depressed after reading that article. Honestly, I have spiked so bad after reading that damn article. I dont know what to do. I have always wanted to be with a girl and I still do, but this article is trying to suggest otherwise that subconcouisly or something that I am gay.
SO my question is can you have OCD and have latent homosexuality? So is OCD like my defense mechanism aganist this latent homosexuality? Conciously I know I dont want to be with a man. I know that, but subconciously I dont really know, because I am unconcious when I am subconcious. So I guess that doesnt make any sense…? or does it? once again, I am depressed, I really cant imagine living a gay life-style. I would rather kill myself first. But does that make me a latent homosexual? because a non-gay would not be scared to live a gay lifestyle? so therefore I would be latent homosexual? What the hell is wrong with me. I am so saddened. I feel like I cant have crushes on girls anymore…If I had a choice between living with OCD (or latent homosexuality) and with the faint chance that it will turn out to be all a lie or having the definite choice of just being asexual, with a second thought I would choose to be asexual, at least all the pain would be gone. I wouldnt have to worry.
Thanks
TOm
Hi Jon,
A few more details I forgot to include yesterday, first off, I am so terrified of homosexual sex that I am paranoid. What my fear stem from this voice in my head (yeah, I have a voice in my head), that always make me fear my self. For example, when I was younger 7 or 8 years old, I remember going into the kitchen standing on a stool to get something and I see this knife on the counter, and suddenly this voice in my head tells me “you need to take that knife and hurt somebody…” I was totally freaked out, I was terrified that one day I might do what that voice is telling me, and the more terrified I became the louder that voice in my head. So from that day on, I would never dare to look at a knife or handle a knife around other people.
So you can see where my fear of gay sex comes from, I am absolutely horrified, I am so scared that some how that voice inside my head will cause me to do something I dont want to do. And for some reason, this voice only appears when I am truly, 100% horrified at something. I am scared of that voice. And I dont mean it’s like a real talking voice, but more of a passing thought that tells me to do something I am terrified of, that makes me fear I cant control myself. I am scared that I am losing control of myself. Does this have to do with OCD? I doubt it does, perhaps I am suffering from something else too?
-Tom
Maria,
You wrote, “I’ve heard about women who were married but then realized they were gay all along.” … Then you wrote, “Did this mean they repressed that they were gay all along or did they actually shift in their preferences?”
—Guess they were gay all along. Can’t say for sure, but that’s what you wrote and it sounds right to me. It is common in HOCD to fear being “in denial” and to be invested in the distorted idea that it is somehow possible to know “for sure” that you are not something you are afraid of. If you are in a relationship and it is otherwise healthy, I would commit to the choice to be in that relationship and not let something as unreliable as thoughts and feelings influence your decision.
Tom, latent homosexuality is a theory. It is not one I agree with. Freud was also well known for not wanting to treat ocd because psychoanalysis didn’t work.
You mentioned symptoms of another manifestation of ocd which we sometimes call Harm OCD (or OCD with violent obsessions) that involves intrusive thoughts of suddenly turning violent. This is another very common and treatable form of ocd. You have ocd.
Maria,
If it makes you feel any better, I heard a radio interview with a guy who was married to his wife for five years and was planning on leaving her because he is gay. He knew very well he was gay (he had two previous male partners) and he was quite comfortable in his gay identity. The problem was that his father was a preacher and so was his brother. He was afraid of what they thought, so he got married to hide it. Another time I saw a similar story on television. So there was no uncertainty there, they were very sure they were gay and just got married to hide or whatever.
But I think as OCD sufferers, we always fear irrationally. I also have the fear that I will be married with kids and one day I’ll say, “oh no, I’m gay,” goodbye wife and kids. But this isn’t a rational thought. Is it not just as possible or more likely I might leave my wife for another women? Or we just get divorced because of other issues? Or maybe I will die before I even get married. Why don’t I fear these things? Probably because I’ve accepted the uncertainty of these things happening, and said “whatever, I’ll take my chances.”
Anything is possible. It’s up to us to decide…live our lives happy and enjoy the relationships we’re in and accept the uncertainty that something might happen down the road, or….we can live in fear the rest of our lives obsessing and cringing in fear. I’ve made up my mind, I’m going to get some therapy.
Dear Frank,
Thanks for your comments. I think you’re so right about worrying about marriage, that there are so many issues and we HOCDers are just too focused on that one issue that is proabbly much more unlikely than others. It’s a weird condition because it comes and goes. There are days I feel my normal straight self. There are days when I feel my weird HOCD self. But Jon has been very helpful in reading his articles and all, compared to my actual therapy in shedding more light on this HOCD issue. I wish I could go to him for therapy. I think we all do perhaps have underlying fears about not being who were really are.
Take care.
Jon,
Great article! Really helps put certain things in perspective. I’m writing you because I am quite sure I have HOCD. I have always been straight and have always had a real desire not only to be with women but to also be the subject of their desires. I have had numerous female sexual partners (over 20) and at the time felt great about it. I even had a gf for 3 years. After I got out that relationship I found myself starting to have bouts of erectile dysfunction. Like one minute I would be aroused and the next I’m doubting everything. I can’t stop thinking and my insecurities start screaming at me. I couldnt figure out why this was happening. It couldnt always be nerves could it?I was scared. A couple months ago I was watching a movie with a bunch of my guy friends at a friends place, while under the influence might I add, and a scene came where I really muscular guy was topless and I found myself being aroused. Suddenly like a speed train of napalm I was hit with “I’m gay.” since then it has been hell on ice for me. I don’t know which way is up and I feel like I’m losing my mind. The thoughts intrude all the time especially around my guy friends. I spike all the time. And although I still have had sex with women, I was not all to enthused. Basically, I cant turn my brain off and I lose interest (even in the middle of intercourse). I keep relating all these experiences that happened in my life, that a few months ago I didnt even remember, to being gay. I had an experience with another boy once but I was under the age of 10 and I thought maybe I could be gay once around 13 but it was for my best friend (this quickly went away). As i got older i would sometimes look at pictures at male genitalia to compare to my own however this would sometimes arouse me. At the time i thought it was simply bc i liked the comparison but now… Now im not so sure. I have always had trouble fitting in when I was younger and felt I always had to impress to be part of the crowd. Although I have been told by both men and women, I am quite attractive, I don’t always see it. In fact sometimes I am disgusted by myself. I am depressed and am scared to wake up everyday bc of my thoughts. Worse I’m scared to sleep bc of my dreams. My confidence is shattered and worst of all I don’t know who I am anymore. Jon, please help me help myself, I just want to be and make others in my life happy, and right now I cannot. Sorry for the long post.
Jay,
Sorry you are going through such a hard time right now. It is clear from your post that you are struggling with OCD and possibly some Body Dysmorphic Disorder as well (it’s not unusual for them to coincide).
Erectile dysfunction is also very common in anxiety disorders. When there is no physical cause for it, over-attending to your thoughts can easily result in not feeling “in the moment” and this can result in loss of erection and further performance anxiety.
The event you described in which you felt arousal while seeing a man with his shirt off has several possible explanations. It could be that you were aroused by coincidence or by random, it could be that you were aroused by the idea of being attractive yourself or of being that guy who would get a hot girl… or as the ocd tells you, it could be that you are gay. The problem with the theory that you are in gay denial is that we have unreliable evidence and an ocd mental block to the validity other theories. In other words, assigning some “gay” meaning to an arousal state makes very little sense, but ultimately you will have to accept that it is not possible to know for sure why you get aroused sometimes.
Over-attending to what does or does not arouse you is a compulsion. Seeking out evidence to prove your sexual orientation one way or another is also compulsive. To get past this obsession, you will need to stop doing compulsions. The way to accomplish this is to get cognitive behavioral therapy and develop skills for tolerating uncertainty. You don’t need to live in fear of your thoughts. Reach out and get help for your ocd.
Dear John
i am stuggling at the moment, when i go out with friends i see attractive women , and know that they are but do not get the arosal only a numb feeling and disapointment , depression, anger, then i see a guy and i get the feeling (i think) i wish and used to have for women. I then have to check and test myself to see if i would sleep with this person.usually that means panic and quick retreat home to test.
I watch gay porn, i dont know if its ego syntonic , or ego dystonic which leads to the compulsion, it feels like i have to do it and maybe there is a little pleasure i dont know, if i dont touch myself i dont get an erection, but then my mind drives me to carry on. i have orgasmed and have found it pleasurable but most of the time its like a cold wave of shame and why did i do that.during my teens i did masterbate once to same sex thoughts and got the same feeling and knew that it was not for me, and carryed on thinking alot about women now my mind says i like this feeling of weird anxiety shame Thats without cognitive thinking intiating the feeling.i tried to call my bluff by trying to say that its really what i want and i am gonna really enjoy it one time and i didnt,now i think that because ive done that ive blocked my true identity and i am in denial.
I also had same sex experience when i was younger 13 and think i orgasmed which made me feel terrible at the time. But all this seems to add up that ive been in denial all the years cos of the guilt or something This also rings true when i go out and do not feel anything towards women, and then without thinking ive seen a guy which causes anxiety , low self esteem. With this comes paranoid that someone will notice ,also I have heard women espically comment on my orientation, which never used to happen. Although i have never been good around women need to get to know them but dont have that chance.
I have had 3 major gf spanning 9 years 14 – 23 and a few inbetween and i did enjoy them alot and was in love. Now being around any women makes me very anxios because they might out me, and i feel that i cant talk to them and the can mind read me.Also this block which feels like it stops my attraction. i have suffered for 7 years now ,dont have a job,sleep all day, watch films all night cos its the easiest way to live, but its not, my last gf told me i was camp when i smoked alot of weed, and we tryed stuff with the finger which i did enjoy. This is when it all started. with this as well my mind pushes that i must now be that way. im 27 this all started around 21.
i did go to the priory in U.k, they didnt think i was gay and prescribed citrolapram 20mg and seroquel 200mg. I did feel better but it did nt last and they never diagnosed me with ocd. It feels like it evovles i read someone comment on this. Its like the longer it has gone on ,the more distorted i think about stuff its still the same topic but my mind makes the outlay different, which inturn starts the cicle again.Its the same cicle but always feels different ( more personal), and my mind says to that your in denial.
i need to get help for me and my family espically my mother is tired on the never ending arguments and reasurrance seeking, but what if its not hocd i dont think my frenids would accept me and i dont wont to prove all this ppl right who judge me. I dont really know what im asking Jon i just had to finally air myself and your site is the one that has helped me the most. I hope i can turn my life aound and help people like you are and be a good person instead of rotting away from being a carefree cheecky chapie to a complete wreck.
Dear John,
I posted on this wall months and months ago. For a while, my HOCD dimmed alot and most of the time I knew who I was (straight) and ignored the thoughts.
However, recently the thoughts have come crashing back with twice the strength and feel that not only am i losing my mind, but also that the longer this continues the more my orientation is being turned.
My most horrifying experience occured this morning. I had a gay dream. Prior to this, I’ve only dreamt of men. However in this dream I got intimate with a woman and I think I actually wanted to do it and enjoyed. Whats worse still, when I woke, I felt a groinal response.
I am beside myself. I have been in tears this morning as I really feel this must mean I’m gay. Is this my sub concious revealing my inner desires? I just dont know.
I feel like I’ve truly lost my Fiance now. Before this HOCD started, I was madly in love with him, desired him, I desperately wanted to get married to him and have children. Now however, when I look at him I feel nothing – it makes me cry because it feels like my happiness has been stolen from me. I no longer want to marry him because I’m worried years down the line I’ll realise I am in fact gay, and leave him and destroy his life. I longer want children, they just annoy me.
I cant ever win or come to a conclusion. Every woman I look at, I think I ‘fancy’ her – this includes young, old, literally *any* female. I have this compulsion to look at women’s breasts now which I hate. Prior to the onset of HOCD (if that’s even what I’m suffering from) If I looked at a woman’s chest it was because I was envious of what they had as I’m small busted.
I keep thinking I must be gay, but being straight feels normal to me and the thought of having to go to a ‘gay club’ to find a woman distresses me.
Maybe i should note that I had this when I was about 13 – 18 which began because a girl at school asked if me and my friend were lesbians because we were really close.
I apologise for the length of my post, but I would so greatly appreciate a response. I feel like my mind is a prison and I’m trapped in these thoughts 24/7. I have no one to turn to and feel so alone.
Hi Ben, thanks for your post and for demonstrating bravery in letting it out. Since you have not asked a particular question about your treatment, I am assuming you are not currently in treatment. This is very important. Whatever the “meaning” of your gay thoughts, it is clear that you are responding to them in an obsessive compulsive way and engaging in behaviors that are interfering in your tolerance of uncertainty. It also sounds like your current lifestyle is a guarantee for depression, which is likely to exacerbate your ocd symptoms. It’s time to get professional help and put your life back together.
Hi Jade, sorry you’re going through a rough time. I can’t recall from our previous posts, are you in treatment? You have ocd and need to be getting cognitive behavioral therapy. Over-attending to your feelings about your fiance is compulsive and making it hard to be in the moment. Not being in the moment is making you obsess about not being right together.
Straight people have gay dreams. You may enjoy it or not. It’s irrelevant. If you enjoy it, it’s because in your dream, you are gay. I can fly in dreams sometimes, but I won’t be jumping out of windows any time soon.
Jon, First of all i have had anxiety attacks (social anxiety) since the age of 18. On that note, I have been doing great with it for the past 2 years and pretty much off of my medication (only when needed) and I am in a relationship with the girl i love and want to spend the rest of my life with, we have been together for almost 3 years. All of a sudden the other week the word gay started popping up in my head and would not go away…I am not attracted to guys and never have been, but i cannot get the thought out of my head, its not like fantasizing about it, its just a voice saying everything you are doing is gay and i am gonna lose everything i have because i am gay, why did you look at that guy? is it because your gay?…when i know i am not. This is ironically happening right as i am thinking of proposing to my girlfriend and buying a house and these thoughts are ruining my life. I feel like a prisoner inside my own mind, and no matter how many times i remind myself that its only thoughts and thoughts can’t control me they still come right back, to the point where i can’t concentrate on anything but the thoughts and just thinking of me being with another guy makes me sick. I have never felt like this before so I did some searching online and found this forum which has been helpful in the most part and i also made a dr’s appointment because of the thoughts and them causing severe anxiety attacks. I just wish these thoughts would go away so i can concentrate and live my life that i am grateful for. Please help me with any advice you may have for me…Thanks
Ricky, for some people with this form of ocd, it doesn’t have much to do with sex at all, but with words. So the word “gay” pops into your head and then you get stuck compulsively analyzing why the word “gay” is there. Of course, the word was always there, since it’s just a word. You have lots of words in your head. But one day your ocd targeted the word “gay” as a potential threat, something that could ruin your relationship or sense of self. From what you’ve written, you sound very invested in trying to get these thoughts and words to go away. This is a trap. You need to be doing the opposite, which is allow the thoughts to be there and stop treating them as threats. Whenever we tell the brain that something normal (i.e. a word) must go away, the brain assumes this is something that should be debated and pursued. So if you are having the thought that everything you do is “gay” (whatever that means) then accept and even agree with it. The hyper-awareness of the thoughts will fade when the over-attending and over-responding stops. By the way, it’s no surprise that this is coinciding with thinking of proposing to your girlfriend and buying a house. People with nothing to lose are probably less likely to fear losing their minds. Sounds like you are pursuing a medication treatment, which could be helpful for the anxiety. I highly recommend also seeking out an ocd specialist to do cognitive behavioral therapy, as this would be the most effective part of your treatment plan against ocd.
Jon, Yes i have started medication zoloft but the dr. said it takes several weeks to kick in. But currently i am so miserable like a prisoner trapped in my own mind, i can not get it out of my head and it is causing anxiety attacks every hour almost. I am terrified that I am gonna lose everything if the keeps up because I can’t continue living like this everyday. I have lost interest in everything i do on a normal basis. I just don’t understand how all of sudden this all started happening, everything was going great with me until last week. I have lost my appetite and energy and fear that this is going to last forever…i just wish i could wake up and the thoughts be gone, my mind has always got stuck on something and takes a while to get out of my head but never anxiety attacks with them (unless thinking about going somewhere with a large crowd). I plan on seeking therapy this week to maybe help with this. Thanks for your time, I really appreciate it.
Jon, thanks for your quick response, your words seem to help me a little… The Doctor started me on Zoloft which takes several weeks to start helping, but currently i am miserable and have lost interest in everything i usually enjoy and i have not been able to eat due to my anxiety attacks. I am also seeking therapy this week to try to help this situation be resolved. I am scared to death about how long this can or will last and if i will ever be normal again? I feel that I can’t perform daily task because my mind will not slow down. Thanks for everything and taking time out of your day to help others who are not your patients.
Jon,
I cant tell you how much this article and your responses to all the comments have helped me. I thought i was losing my mind and turning completely insane and more than that the fear was that i was turning lesbian or realizing that i was one and how could i live like that with a woman. You said that homosexuals fear societal oppression and how their family would take this more than the fact of being lesbian. I just wanted to tell you that i have felt both. I have felt very anxious about just being lesbian and having to give up my bf and life as i know it but part of it was also fear of how the world would take me. I felt constantly scared of how i would face myself and tried imagining in my mind how life would be after that. I have felt similarly to what almost all the people have said above but i have also felt strongly about how the world would take me. What would that mean.
Secondly, of late i have been feeling as if i really enjoy that feeling and want to think more of it.When i try doing it and my fears are validated i again freak out. Then i go into the entire exercise of rechecking in my mind again. is it possible that there are moments when you dont feel disgusted by the thought at the outset and think that it would not be too bad like this and i should see how far it leads to really check whether i would be comfortable with it or not. My final problem is sometimes the thought crosses my mind that im using this problem of OCD to again be in denial and give up in between. I purposely avert all logical arguments that disprove my fears and focus on new ones that validate it. I sometimes feel im faking it by being attracted to my bf and have to try too hard which just shows its not real. I feel henceforth i will naturally gravitate towards women and try feeling happy about it. But i instantly panic. Please show me a way out and please tell me whether i am in denial. I
goodly, glad to hear these articles have resonated with you.
You ask if it is possible to sometimes not be disgusted by the thoughts, or even like them. I think the question overlooks the fact that the thoughts themselves are normal events which are being distorted by ocd responses. Having a gay thought and liking it is not the end-all-be-all of what makes a person homosexual.
For example, I consider myself a non-violent person. However, I really do enjoy a good horror movie. I may get thoughts of a violent nature when someone cuts me off on the freeway. Perhaps I will think of them driving off a bridge. At times this thought will appear as an intrusion and I will respond to it by thinking that this is an image I would rather not contemplate. And at times that same thought will make me chuckle. In either case, it has not made me cut anyone’s brake lines.
You mention worrying about whether you are somehow faking your attraction to your boyfriend. I would challenge this by asking, so what if you are? If you want to be with your boyfriend, be with your boyfriend. If this involves acting like you want to be with your boyfriend, then so be it. If your energy is invested in trying to be CERTAIN that you are having the right thoughts and feelings at the right time, then things are always likely to feel a bit off.
The “way out” is to stop checking, stop analyzing, and stop treating the issue like it is an issue of sexual orientation. It is an issue of ocd and that is what should be treated, with an ocd specialist, with cognitive behavioral therapy.
Dear doctor,
Thank you so much for the prompt response. I live in India where mental health problems are still stigmatized and though i am undergoing CBT now with a college counsellor, im still not sure how effective it is. If you could please send me any information about OCD specialists in India. And, since im going through hell i would just like to share something more with you and il be really indebted to you if you could help.
On the day all this happened in January, this year and i broke down fearing that i had been attracted really to a woman because i was always in the process of checking and felt that im actually attracted, i ran away from class and started going through my bfs pics to reassure myself that im really fine. But, as soon as i saw his pics in that state, i felt that a lesbian woman could also look the same and behave in the same way( just like a man) and what if i am attracted to her. His image was completely distorted in my mind till then and whenever i was with him i used to ‘feel’ that i am with a woman and in a lesbian relationship. Every minute the thoughts in my mind replaced his image with that of a woman and i became disgusted with these intruding thoughts and everything he said or did seemed just like a lesbian doing it. it was not that i was in doubt of who he is but i felt people must be thinking im talking to my gf instead of my bf and the thoughts just kept replacing him with a woman and i could not stop it. For a long time i thought i was schizophrenic or delusional but the truth was that i knew its my bf and not some woman. It was just my mind telling me this could also be happening between a woman and you and i hated it. After CBT, i learnt not paying attention to this and it certainly improved our relationship but just slightly. I still get the same thoughts that this could also be happening with a woman and when i dont pay attention to it i sometimes feel i have accepted being in a lesbian relationship and will probably seriously start thinking of him as a real woman and lose my mind. This is the most distressing part of my problem where my mind does not allow me to see the man i love the most, in the way i like him and keeps bringing in the thoughts of it just being the same with a woman. I hate it,despise it. This is also a reason i am suddenly petrified of masculine looking women. and the moment i dont react to it, i feel that i have accepted being lesbian and freak out. Is this also a manifestation of the OCD or something more acute.
Hi John
I went out the other night with friends and decided to be more positive. I felt anxious and with that came the want to check.Even with this problem occuring i decided to act confident and talk to people and focuses on the then and there. There were still mind niggles but they did not envelope into full blown panic.
I did then see someone who i know, hes is in the army and is good looking, also i have thought that he thought i was gay. I get the feeling and start to worry. Is this a missed placed feeling of admiration,expectancy wave because i have logged this in my brain as a dangerous situation or attraction?
I do have groinal responses to men and women. when its to women it does feel nice when natural and not forced. But when it does feel right i dismiss it because it is right and i dont need to think about it,which inturn feels like it is all just a bluff.
When with men its not something i want ( i think i m so confused now) and it needs to be analzed which creates the cycle.
For most of my evening out i did concentrate on the positives and did chat to a girl and felt underlying sexual tension which felt nice and boosted my confidence. but i still had two mental zones, one when i felt good and nothing of hocd nature bothered me. one that caused anxiety inturn paranoid and hocd related though patterns.
i dont know if people who dont suffer from hocd go through this mental change but not relating to hocd.
After the evening i felt invigorated and know that three meals a day,exercise,diversion from hocd thinking and positivity would be good steps to follow to help recover, yet monday morning, been awake all night again i feel anxious , been on forums and now writing to you. when i feel like this i have no motivation to change and the problem is , if i have anxiety i have no motivation so how do i change its called tough love and discipline but i cant muster it never really had to do it(things are comfortable there not because of the low hum of anxiiety ,depression but to jump out and have more anxiety just seems to much) if the world was going to end tomorrow would i do anything about it then.Its pathetic ,really pathetic .
Its like because of a positve event ive done enough or my mind is trying to sabotage me from talkinhg the next step.or maybe its all denial .Ive researched the hair whorl,finger index ,certain smells are giving off by homesexuals and women could tell with a high percentage someone was gay from just looking at a picture, gone on forums who say hocd is non existence and read storied about people who say they could be okay one day not thinking about homesexuality, and they next they could nt and in the end they have come out.
Also now i worry that i dont find female anatomy down there attrctive anymore so i watch spercific porn to see i do or do not like it, this happens from time to time in the cycle. I mean what straight man would think that??!??! i never use to.( all scarry)
It does not matter but it does, i just want what i had but i question that.it feels sometimes like my soul or god is trying to push me on journey to becoming gay, I did take your advice and have looked into therapy and hopefully will be starting soon. I realise that its all about changing cogntions but i worry that if i did follow through would i just be thinking myself straight and in the end just being indenial and not happy, again uncertainty, but before all this happened i was certain and never thought about the things i do now, i just cant understand why that would be without some phychoanylsis answer.
sorry again for the long post john this must be exacerbating.
My questions are do you think i have spectrum hocd, sexual idedntity crisis ocd, schizophrenia,hocd,bisexuality or a gay man stuck in denial?
Also can people maintain recovery i read alot on boards about people who relapse and never break? through but i suppose people dont post positive things.
How can i get motivated to change my life?
any help would be greatly appreciated, sorry for poor grammar
Ben
Great article. But I have one question, hope you’ll find time to answer.
I get aroused by gay porn (something I just discovered, I never liked it before), I notice good looking men in the street(actually I notice them, and I would think “damn that’s nice body, wish it was mine, I hate him for being hot”) , but I just can’t imagine myself with a man, I don’t like how they smell, I don’t like the fact that after all it is mans ass you have to…”touch”, I can’t imagine myself dating men, going out with them, just spending my life with a man is horrible idea, and something I am scared, like I will find out that I am gay and that everything I ever dreamed about is just some big fat lie.
I get arouse by staright porn (watched it all my life), I like girls anatomy, I am extremlly aroused by thought of being in love with a woman and having a family with her, I always dreamed of finding my princess, and I am fine with a role of a prince. I should say that those homosexual thoughts and feelings (if an erection is a feeling)makes me extremley anxious, like I want to puke whole day, i can’t eat, i can’t study… and everything started when a friend of mine asked me if i was gay, and he cane out to me saying he was gay. I am open minded, I said that it is ok for him, but I am not gay… after that I felt like I didn’t do the right thing, like I should have punch him, I should have call him names and leave, not be nice to him, and profing myself that in fact I am gay, but I just live in a lie… This is frustrating, I am terrefied of these thoughts, because I see myself only with a girl. I should mention that I never had any gay contacts (like lovers, boyfirends,sex) but I never had sex with a girl either, and I am 22. sorry for disturbing you with a loooooong comment, but I just had to gett this off my chests….
Dear John
I am sorry to write again!!
I have been reading alot about gay men who are married and dont know their gay and find out they are gay futher down the line.i dont understand how this is possible unless they went through something like hocd before. Or men who knowingly are gay and in denial and still marry due to social reprecussions. If my experinces with women were all false due to being uncounciously brainwashed that homesexual is not acceptable, then the outcome could be as above, but i dont want to do that to someone so even if i do naturally want women, this is always gonna play on my mind so i cant be confident around women which in turn could drive me to being gay.
Also i have compulsively masterbated to straight porn and enjoyed it. this is also a problem. If i find women attractive and natural fantazise about it feels good and because it cuts out ocd it becomes a compulsion. this in turn i dont know lowers my testorene? and inturn i notice women less and men more, is this biological or a cognition ive weaved into my phsyche, is it distorted if a cognition,i keep compulsive masterbate untill i check gay porn and masterbate to that, which makes me feel angrey,fustrated and annoyed.
But some men have said that this is what they did and somewhere along the line things changed,, this is all very troublesome. It seems from what ive read that this is a growing trend that people are commenting on. sometimes i think that this does nt bother me as much and that i should just except the inevaitable. Also all these gaydar studies that are proving it is very much a sixth sense for gay men and women, it just makes me think the times after this started (ocd?) that women have commented means i have turned gay?
Please reply to the above comments with any insight and then BAN me from writing on this forum. I am using this as an outlet and i not questioning your medical opinion( i am very greatful for your opinion but as i am not paying you and this is out of your kindness) but it sort of sparks creativity from a fear to argue why i am differnt and not suffering from hocd, which i worry greatly i am not,
also maybe i should of put spike warnings or somethng,
thanks and sorry
ben
Ben,
You write: My questions are do you think i have spectrum hocd, sexual idedntity crisis ocd, schizophrenia,hocd,bisexuality or a gay man stuck in denial?
—–HOCD.
You write: Also can people maintain recovery i read alot on boards about people who relapse and never break? through but i suppose people dont post positive things.
—–You are seeking certainty about the future success or failure of your future therapy which has not happened.
You write: How can i get motivated to change my life?
—-This is not a question I can answer. Though I can tell you that waiting for a certain feeling to overcome you before you do something about your ocd will keep you waiting for a very long time. Better to start now and have faith that motivation will come with improvement. Depression may be the culprit in your motivational issues, so that may need to be addressed.
The only other thing to comment on in your first post is the obsessional fear regarding the attractiveness of female genitalia. I’ve heard this from a lot of male ocd sufferers. It needs to be understood that people in general find genitals to be a bit silly looking and we find them arousing only within the context of the person we are with and what we are doing with them. Some people have fascinations with genitals on their own but I think it is somewhat less common. The HOCD sufferer is likely to think they are gay because they have a thought about vagina looking odd. Well, everything looks odd down there, make or female, and it looks even more odd when you burden it with analysis.
As for your second post, I can’t give you a satisfactory answer regarding what is going on with married men who “find out” they are gay. I comment on it in part 4 of this blog, but in the end you have to live with the uncertainty that this scary thing, whatever it is, could happen to you (you could also be struck by a meteor and telling me that gravity is a premonition).
Regarding the use of straight porn, consider that you are basically sacrificing something that could be a healthy and fun part of your sexual world for something compulsive and self-destructive. Better to set rules for yourself that involve NOT masturbating to straight porn as a response to an hocd spike.
In the end, you are not going to get the guidance you need from online forums. You need cbt from an ocd specialist. Get that and you have every reason to believe you can get your freedom from ocd back.
Drake89, if I told you that a woman who identified as straight found lesbian porn to be arousing, would you assume she was a lesbian? Being aroused by a sexual thought, whether or not it is the sexual activity you would generally pursue in real life, is a normal experience that has nothing to do with defining one’s orientation. You can read more about gay fantasy and hocd in part 4 of this blog.
I think punching your friend is not an appropriate response for a person who is secure in their sexuality and not threatened by thoughts. It sounds like what you experienced with your friend coming out was a sort of “backdoor spike” in which the ocd says you’re gay because you didn’t act freaked out enough about your friend being gay.
Ultimately you need to allow yourself to have whatever thoughts and feelings (and urges and sensations) you have without judging them or trying to shut them down. If the idea of being with a man for the rest of your life sounds “horrible” then you should go ahead and pursue women. Maybe you will continue to have gay thoughts, maybe you won’t. This is not about sexual orientation, but is really about you trying to control your thoughts.
Please note: The “Comments” section for this article is now closed. We want to thank everyone who has participated. We appreciate your openness, and hope that we have been able to provide you with helpful suggestions. Please visit us again to read more articles by the staff therapists of the OCD Center of Los Angeles. If you would like to further discuss treatment options available to you at the center, we can be reached at (310) 824-5200 (ext. 1). Thank you.