Sexual Orientation OCD: HOCD Sub-Types and Their Treatment
Jon Hershfield of the OCD Center of Los Angeles discusses treatment of Sexual Orientation OCD, also known as HOCD or Gay OCD, using Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) and Mindfulness. Part three of an ongoing series.
There are many variations and sub-types of Sexual Orientation OCD (HOCD)
When I initially wrote the part one and part two of my article on Sexual Orientation OCD (aka “Homosexual OCD”, aka “HOCD”, aka “Gay OCD”), it was intended solely to reflect this rather common form of the disorder as I saw it presented in several of my clients. I had not anticipated such a significant online response, with so many additional questions and angles on the subject.
Sexual obsessions in general are under-reported because of shameful feelings associated with them. And yet there is probably a somewhat higher prevalence of sexual obsessions in OCD than any other obsession for this same reason – the thoughts are unwanted! This seems so very evident in Sexual Orientation OCD because the feared consequence appears so tangible. In other common OCD obsessions, such as “Harm OCD”, the idea that someone might be in denial of violent impulses is plenty terrifying. However, there is an understanding that being violent is unacceptable in and of itself. With Sexual Orientation OCD, the sufferer generally does not see anything wrong with being gay per se, as long as it is not themselves being gay. This causes a lot of confusion and a lot of resistance to seeking treatment.
I’d like to use this latest installment in what has become a series of discussions on Sexual Orientation OCD to be more specific about the different ways I have seen this OCD manifestation present and the different Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) strategies that appear to work. I have attempted to categorize them, but it’s important to remember that sufferers are likely to fall into a combination of several categories and not just one. Also bear in mind that I will continue to use “gay” or “homosexual” to be synonymous with alternative orientations for simplicity’s sake only. Homosexual and bisexual individuals with OCD can, and do, sometimes obsess about being straight.
All-Or-Nothing HOCD
This is perhaps both the most common and the least reported subtype of HOCD because it is easy to overlook the OCD characteristics. In short, All-Or-Nothing HOCD describes the experience of those who have always been of one orientation, have never experimented with other orientations, and who do not have gay fantasies, but who just randomly have a “gay” thought or feeling one day and it scares them. It is often reported as starting with a simple, “Did I find that person attractive?” and “What does it mean that I can’t be 100% certain that I did not find that person attractive?”
In All-Or-Nothing HOCD, the primary distorted belief is that straight people never have any gay thoughts, so any gay thoughts must be an indicator of latent homosexuality. In fact straight people do have gay thoughts, but generally prefer not to apply them to gay sexual behaviors. In actuality, it is not possible to know what the word “gay” even means on a literal level without having what can only be described as a “gay” thought.
So for the sufferer who sees gay thoughts as contaminating an otherwise purely straight mind, compulsions are going to be focused on making the gay thoughts go away through various proving rituals. This may take the form of compulsive masturbation to straight fantasies or avoidance of anything that might trigger the presence of a gay thought. It often involves avoiding people who the sufferer sees as even having the potential to be gay. Just as a handwasher tries to be certain there is not contaminant on their hands, this HOCD sufferer is aiming for total eradication of the unapproved gay thought.
Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) treatment strategies for All-Or-Nothing HOCD should involve gradual exposure to things that trigger gay thoughts while the sufferer practices resisting the urge to tell themselves they are not gay.
Relationship HOCD
People are complicated. That means relationships are twice as complicated. Some people are lucky in love, some people are unlucky, some people are both, and some people really can’t tell because of their OCD. This form of HOCD occurs when an OCD sufferer uses potential gayness as an explanation for what they see as failed heterosexual relationships. Women with Relationship HOCD may identify themselves as “man-hating dykes”, while men may see themselves as “just not understanding women”, and may describe themselves as being “in denial” of their “true” sexual orientation.
Often in cases like these, the HOCD itself is a smokescreen for what is sometimes called Relationship OCD (aka ROCD) or Relationship Substantiation OCD. Those with ROCD tend to have obsessions that revolve around fears of not “really” loving or being sexually attracted to their spouse or partner, not being involved with the right person, or not being the right person for their partner. Those with Relationship HOCD can put off dealing with these issues if they conceptualize themselves as being incapable of having a healthy heterosexual relationship because, in their mind, they might actually be gay!
Because this form of HOCD emphasizes partnership, sufferers are likely to over-attend to how they relate to people of the same sex. A man may notice that he feels better understood, has more in common with, and enjoys his time with another man in ways that women do not satisfy him. The only thing missing is the sex, he thinks, and this triggers a lot of compulsive analysis about who he is “really” wired to love.
Similarly, a woman may become aware that other women share qualities their male partners seem to lack – for example, sensitivity, patience, and emotional availability. In those who don’t have HOCD, this same-sex identification is looked at as totally normal. “Of course my same-sex friends understand where I’m coming from. They know what the other sex is like! They get my interests and motivations!”. The word “gay” doesn’t enter into the equation.
CBT for Relationship HOCD is going to involve traditional Exposure and Response Prevention (ERP) for sexual orientation fears, but also exposure to behaviors that demonstrate vulnerability to a romantic partner, accepting uncertainty about the “quality” or “completeness” of heterosexual relationships, and other non-avoidance exposures.
Self-Hating HOCD
This form of HOCD generally has more to do with depression than sex or sexual orientation. Typically (though not exclusively) this seems to occur in people who were severely mistreated, abused, or bullied. Just as this can occur in Social Anxiety Disorder, the “bully” takes up residence in the person’s mind and any perceived failure in life triggers an internal statement of “You’re gay.” It’s meant as an insult, more than a suggestion that one should set about finding themselves sexually.
The constant inner-abuse seen in this type of HOCD often leads to a deeper depression, which further distorts the intrusive thoughts, which in turn leads to even more depression. In some cases this may lead to a pseudo-gay fantasy state in which the sufferer imagines themselves living out what they see as the greatest disappointment to their parents. The line of thinking is that they are so unlovable as to be invisible to their desired orientation. In treating those with this type of HOCD, there may be more emphasis on cognitive restructuring and learning to identify “bully” thoughts as distorted glitches in the mind which are essentially irrelevant to sexuality. Because ERP requires significant motivation and commitment, it may also be clinically appropriate to focus on the depression first before engaging in exposures.
Experimental History HOCD
Despite the fact that same-sex exploration is common in children who are learning about the human body (i.e. playing “doctor”) and discovering how different things look and feel, people with OCD who obsess about their sexual orientation may use benign childhood experiences as “proof” of latent homosexuality. So despite a post-pubescent life of heterosexual behavior, the presence of unwanted homosexual thoughts triggers frightening doubts. The sufferer is likely to compulsively review childhood memories and the unknowable memories of thoughts and feelings that might have been had during any same-sex exploration. “What exactly did I do and why?”
It is also common for teenagers throughout the course of puberty to experience confusion related to gender, orientation, and other sexual issues. As the sexual brain develops, so too the does the sexual mind. For people with OCD during their teens, this can be very troubling. For those whose HOCD develops later, they may look back on this period in which their sexuality was developing and compulsively analyze anything that could be construed as inconsistent with their current sexual preference.
Another variation on this reflecting form of HOCD is compulsive analysis of any same-sex play that might have taken place in college or at some other point in life. A big part of treatment for those with this type of HOCD is identifying mental checking as a compulsion to be resisted, instead of as a way to figure out one’s sexuality. Curiosity is not orientation. Whatever happened, happened.
Real Man / Real Woman HOCD
People who suffer from this form of OCD place a lot of emphasis on masculinity and femininity and the cultural expectations that come with them. A male sufferer might notice an attractive male, and then chastise himself for being able to notice attractiveness in males. He assumes this is a sign of femininity, something a “real man” would have no ounce of (again see the all-or-nothing thinking). This can also present itself through a man’s affinity for the arts or other things he may have been culturally primed to see as non-masculine.
Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) for this form of HOCD may involve more exposure to material that the sufferer sees as “dainty” or weak, such as watching program with a flamboyant homosexual character or attending a ballet. This is sometimes more triggering than exposure to gay pornography.
Similarly, a heterosexual woman may notice another woman is beautiful and then distort this through the belief that “real women” only ever think about men. It also may involve avoidance of assertive behavior or any other cultural attribute traditionally associated with masculinity. Exposure for this sufferer may involve images and films involving “butch” lesbians or feminist literature.
Groinal Response HOCD
The functioning paradigm here is, “I must experience sexual arousal or groinal sensations only in very specific pre-approved circumstances.” These circumstances typically mean in the presence of an attractive, age-appropriate member of the opposite sex. But there are a few important considerations to note here:
- all sexual thoughts (wanted or unwanted) may cause sexual arousal;
- attending to one’s groin actually causes sensations to occur there;
- there are sensations going on in your groin all the time, but unless you go out of your way to pay attention to them, you just don’t notice them;
- groinal sensations often occur for no reason.
Men don’t get headaches just because they thought of something painful and they don’t get erections just because they are feeling sexual. In short, who knows what’s going on down there? Yet the HOCD sufferer is going to compulsively check and analyze sensations for evidence of homosexuality. Part of the confusion the OCD capitalizes on is the fact that groinal stimulation is generally considered a positive sensation. Fellatio or cunnilingus is going to feel good no matter what gender is delivering it, but the HOCD mind insists it only be delivered by a person to whom we are attracted in order to accept it. HOCD manipulates the mind into thinking that any positive groinal sensation at the “wrong” time must mean a general sexual preference to whatever is in the environment at that moment.
Cognitive Behavioral Therapy(CBT) for the treatment of this type of HOCD is going to involve identifying and challenging distorted beliefs about groinal responses and exposure to arousing material that falls outside of their traditional preferences.
Spectrum HOCD
Not everyone agrees, but many believe as Alfred Kinsey did, that sexuality exists on a scale with straight on one side, gay on the other, and people mostly somewhere in the middle. While it will no doubt be triggering for some readers to consider, many people who identify as heterosexual sometimes have homosexual thoughts, feelings, sensations and fantasies. Those without obsessive-compulsive tendencies allow themselves to enjoy this aspect of their reality. These are people who prefer sexual activity with the opposite sex, but also find same-sex fantasies (and even behaviors) to be somewhat intriguing and arousing. They are not bisexuals, who would likely say they are quite capable of sexual and romantic fulfillment with either sex, but are instead heterosexuals who simply are not dangling off either edge of the Kinsey scale.
For those people who experience themselves as somewhere within this spectrum of sexuality, but also have HOCD, this can be very upsetting. They will want to know for sure if they are bisexual or not, how far in one direction or another they “belong”, and what the “right” term is to describe themselves. “Am I 10% gay? 20%? If I don’t know for sure, then I will always feel that I am harboring a secret.” Without an appropriate label, they live in constant fear of an identity crisis.
Treatment for this type of HOCD relies heavily on Mindfulness Based CBT and resisting compulsive mental analysis. The exposure is not aimed at homosexuality, but at uncertainty. This can sometimes be done in the form of an imaginal exposure script in which the sufferer describes the negative consequences of never knowing what to label themselves.
(Really) Need-To-Know HOCD
These are people who identify as heterosexual but have been struggling with untreated (or mistreated) HOCD to such an extent that they have gone from mental checking, to physical checking, to actual experimental checking. This is somewhat rare and I would imagine some people might read this and say, “OK, let’s just call it gay then,” but that’s not what is happening here. People who suffer from OCD, regardless of the manifestation, are struggling against an intolerance for uncertainty. People without OCD largely tolerate uncertainty by not paying much attention to it.
For any reader who does not have OCD, try thinking really hard about the fact that you are not 100% certain what will happen when you die. Now imagine that all of the people you love will consider you hugely irresponsible for not attaining certainty on the issue. This is how an OCD sufferer often feels. Not only do they poorly estimate the risk posed by unwanted thoughts and feelings, but they have an exaggerated sense of responsibility for avoiding these risks.
Ultimately, for some HOCD sufferers, being gay may sound like a relief from not knowing for sure that they are straight. So they begin to build a case for gayness. This may involve seeking treatment from LGBT specialists, trying to train themselves to enjoy gay pornography and sometimes engaging in sexual experimentation. The goal is not necessarily to like gay sex, but to determine once and for all – “am I gay or straight?”.
Typically this backfires in one of two ways. Either the person finds the experience somewhat satisfactory but not preferential to straight sex, or they find the experience abhorrent and resent themselves for having done it. In either case, they are left with the same uncertainty they find intolerable, plus more ammunition for the OCD. Just as in the other forms of HOCD, the objective has to be tolerance for not-knowing rather than proof.
These are the various subtypes and angles on HOCD that I have treated thus far, but there are certainly others. In the next installment of this series, we will examine some additional nuances to HOCD and common impediments to effective treatment.
To read part one in our series of articles on HOCD, click here.
To read part two in our series of articles on HOCD, click here.
To read part four in our series of articles on HOCD, click here.
•Jon Hershfield, MA, is a psychotherapist at the the OCD Center of Los Angeles, a private, outpatient clinic specializing in Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy (CBT) for the treatment of Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD) and related conditions. Jon can be contacted at jon@ocdla.com.
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134 Comments to Sexual Orientation OCD: HOCD Sub-Types and Their Treatment
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Hi Jon!
Firstly, thank you for all your information! I wanted to first ask, what are the other forms of arousal that may be experienced through compulsive checking?
And if I was experiencing such arousal to unwanted sexual thoughts, would you treat it differently if you felt it was Spectrum HOCD or just a normal physiological urge occurring to a sexual thought?
I just want to understand how to think about my thoughts, how much meaning to give them, etc.
Thanks once again!
Hi Chris,
If I understand your question, you are trying to find the “right” way to respond to the physical sensations you notice when you check for arousal. Since the act of checking itself distorts the way you are experiencing the arousal, the thoughts about the arousal are also going to be distorted. This means any effort put into trying to determine if the thoughts say something about your sexuality is a waste. Thoughts, feelings and sensations are not reliable evidence. Whatever you are feeling, you are simply feeling, so accepting the feeling without judgment makes the most sense.
To answer your second question, the only difference between Spectrum HOCD and a genuine sexual arousal response along the spectrum is that people with Spectrum HOCD think they have to know if the sexual response is genuine or part of the OCD. I don’t think it is important to know. People have all kinds of responses to things, so time is better spent engaging in behaviors you enjoy and not trying to be sure you are having the right thoughts about them.
The amount of meaning you give to any thought is voluntary.
Hi Jon,
I’ve been dealing with this particular manifestation of OCD for three years, and while I see myself in many of these subtypes of HOCD I still question myself incessantly if I have OCD or not. I also have many of the classic OCD compulsive behaviors, to give some examples, forcing myself to think of sexual situations with women checking for arousal I often time myself while doing this checking because previously I was worried that I wasn’t giving myself enough time. Another compulsion I do is constantly asking reassurance, either from googling or asking a family member. My question for you is that are these types of behaviors common for people who are actually gay or are they clearly signs of HOCD?
Thank you
P.s. I loved reading reading all three of your articles and I look forward to reading more in the future!
Jon,
I need your expert opinion. I believe my HOCD stems from my ex girlfriend not understanding a particular fetish I had. In her confusion she claimed I was gay during our break up. It has sent me into a downwards spiral of questioning, analyzing, checking, and doubting. I’ve gone from feeling incompetent to being outright compulsive.
I suppose, beyond any general advice specific to my situation, I just want to know the best way to dig myself out of this hole is. I feel like the HOCD is what has dug me into this hole and my fetish is like a weight on my back that makes it harder to get out.
Thank you.
Very interesting article. I would like to ask one question. By Spectrum HOCD do you mean something like this: I for example feel intense sexual stimulation by thinking homosexual thoughts, but on the other hand I’m feeling extremely uncertain if I am gay and the thoughts leave me very depressed, something I never experienced with heterosexual thoughts ever. No matter how much I try to convince myself that it wouldn’t matter if I were gay (I’m neither Christian nor conservative BTW, so no problems in the religion area), I cannot bring myself to tolerate the thoughts. I am glad that I know it’s just OCD, but that doesn’t make the thoughts more bearable.
All the best.
Gaby, thanks for the comment and your kind words about the articles.
Questioning whether or not you have OCD is something I have never seen a non-OCD-sufferer take seriously. But knowing this probably does not stop the doubts. Part of overcoming any OCD manifestation is accepting uncertainty – and this includes the uncertainty that it even IS ocd. One way to help let go of the debate is to ask yourself what you want. If you want to feel more secure in your sexuality, then you are going to have to stop sending messages to the brain that your sexuality is open for debate. This means stopping all of the compulsions, the attempts to prove you are straight. So while it clearly IS ocd, knowing that for sure does not change what you will have to do in order to address your problem.
To your question, you describe several things common to OCD and none to homosexuality that I am aware of. You might also wish to read the following article about reassurance seeking:
http://www.ocdla.com/blog/reassurance-seeking-ocd-anxiety-597
Jim,
A lot of people with HOCD report being first triggered by someone calling them gay for some reason (sometimes not even sexual). This coincides with a distorted belief that the person doing the name-calling can somehow see deep into your soul and identify a truth about you that was beyond even your own grasp. OCD loves this.
Whatever your “fetish” or enjoyable sexual activity is, as long as it is safe, it is normal. To get ocd to loosen its grip, you will first have to come to a place of acceptance with your fetish. It’s not about what it “means”. You like what you like. The end.
For the OCD, the best treatment is Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT). Part of the obsession for you is a fear of being gay, but an equal part is a fear that this “fetish” means something important. CBT can help you change the way you relate to these thoughts and feelings.
Confused in Greece,
Since you have genuine ego-syntonic gay thoughts, feelings and sensations that you find genuinely pleasing and stimulating, these are not obsessions. However, you are obsessing over what this MEANS and whether or not it is acceptable. More than simply tolerating the thoughts, feelings, and sensations, you will want to learn to accept them as a part of who you are. More than “bearable,” they should be accepted simply as what they are, pleasurable.
Since it sounds like you are generally oriented to heterosexual behavior, the problem seems to be one of acceptance of yourself as you are, and not sexual orientation confusion. In your case, calling the thoughts “just ocd” is actually part of the compulsion to disown the part of you that enjoys homosexual thoughts. The gay thoughts are not unwanted or intrusive, so they are not ocd obsessions. But your belief that they are intolerable and your response to that belief may be compulsive. The obsession is that having these thoughts must mean something is wrong with you.
Jon,
Thank you very much for answering my questions. I have been diagnosed by 5 different doctors and all of them have come to the conclusion that I am a “classic” case of OCD. I do have one other question concerning the groinal checking. In my case I have checked for arousal more times than I can remember, and I have yet to get aroused by these thoughts of women. However, I see that in your article you stated that doing this checking leads to feeling sensations which I have most certainly experienced. I also read that these sensations could be either ego dystonic or ego syntonic, in my experience whenever I did this checking, there would be some occasions where after feeling these sensations I would immediately feel anxiety and would not be able to continue with the checking because of this anxiety. Is this a case of these sensations being ego dystonic? Also I would like to get some clarity on a certain reassuring behavior I do. This behavior is mental, I repeat to myself that I will have to have sex with women over and over and immediately begin to cry. I’ve discussed this with one of my previous therapists, and he said that was proof that I in fact did not want to have sex with women. Should I use this behavior as “evidence” of my heterosexuality or should I stop it completely like my other compuslions?
Thank You
Hi Jon!
So just to confirm one thing: there is a difference in attaining a sexual response from compulsively going over scenarios in your mind since developing HOCD, in comparison to generally feeling pleasure in the case of Spectrum HOCD?
To make that question clearer, I am under the impression from your article, and personal experiences through my HOCD, that it is very possible to attain a sexual response to certain thoughts, just because they are sexual in nature. However, it seems like you are saying this is not the same as Spectrum HOCD…. Is that correct?
Thanks!
Chris
Gaby,
>>>I have been diagnosed by 5 different doctors and all of them have come to the conclusion that I am a “classic” case of OCD. I do have one other question…
—Classic.
>>>concerning the groinal checking. In my case I have checked for arousal more times than I can remember, and I have yet to get aroused by these thoughts of women. However, I see that in your article you stated that doing this checking leads to feeling sensations which I have most certainly experienced. I also read that these sensations could be either ego dystonic or ego syntonic, in my experience whenever I did this checking, there would be some occasions where after feeling these sensations I would immediately feel anxiety and would not be able to continue with the checking because of this anxiety. Is this a case of these sensations being ego dystonic?
—The need to be certain about this issue is compulsive and you are better off with me not answering the question. You feel whatever you feel. You should stop checking.
>>>Also I would like to get some clarity on a certain reassuring behavior I do. This behavior is mental, I repeat to myself that I will have to have sex with women over and over and immediately begin to cry.
—Compulsive flooding, or unnecessarily trying to force yourself into a state of disgust over your obsession, is a common and poorly understood mental ritual. Exposure with Response Prevention (ERP) is a tool used in cognitive behavioral therapy aimed at confronting an unwanted thought while resisting doing compulsions in order to increase one’s tolerance for the discomfort this produces. It is done intentionally and methodologically to change a person’s obsessive compulsive pattern. Sometimes people take the concept of exposure and try to use it haphazardly to prove they do not like something and this is nothing more than another compulsion and self-reassurance.
>>>I’ve discussed this with one of my previous therapists, and he said that was proof that I in fact did not want to have sex with women.
—I disagree. Making yourself cry doesn’t prove things. It is evidence of ocd and you should not be looking for proof about your obsession.
>>>Should I use this behavior as “evidence” of my heterosexuality or should I stop it completely like my other compuslions?
—You should not do compulsions.
Chris,
Yes, you are correct. A person who has no homosexual inclinations may still have a sexual arousal response to anything sexual, including homosexual things. This is different from Spectrum HOCD, which refers to people have genuine homosexual desires but see themselves as more heterosexually oriented. Their HOCD fear is that something is wrong with the part of them that enjoys homosexuality or that not knowing exactly “how much” of them is gay will result in some identity crisis.
Thank you for the answer. While I agree with you, there are some problems in my case. 1) While I agree that there is a level of ‘ego-syntonicity’ in these thoughts, there’s also an amount of ‘ego-dystonicity” also. And not only after the thought takes place but also during the thought. Also I cannot love with men. These thoughts are “masturbation material” only. 2) As I said since I don’t have any prejudice against homosexuality (having a very good friend who is gay), so I find it kinda implausible to have such a visceral prejudice against something that I have no problem with.
But of course I understand that in answering that way, I have misinterpreted the Kinsey Scale already. I suppose that being an 1 on that scale, doesn’t necessarily include JUST heterosexual men who occasionally have sex with men, but also people like me who can’t, but have other ego-syntonic homosexual experiences. Also I understand that the actual definition of homosexuality is much different than what I have in mind.
So what I have to do is to resolve my irrational phobia that “having ego-syntonic gay thoughts” => “No sex with women never,at all”. Which is fine logically, but I admit that I have a problem accepting it *emotionally*.
Anyway, thank you a lot. Your comment really helped me a lot
I read this article and all of this is striking a cord with me. My question is can HOCD progress; meaning over several months of suffering can the HOCD evolve in the sense that it can move from one phase to another. I feel like after reading all this maybe I have HOCD and it is in overdrive bigtime but I can’t help sending myself the message no something is wrong with you, you are not meant to have the life you always pictured (happy marriage, kids, house, dog, etc).
Hi Denise, I’m not sure I understand your question about HOCD evolving. Obsessions often change over time and tend to stick to whatever elicits the most discomfort and triggers the most compulsive behavior.
Confused in Greece,
I think you have a good grasp of what is going on. Not all thoughts which are different from our general preferences are necessarily hateful to us. A straight person can very much enjoy a homosexual thought and not obsess about its meaning or conclude that it is an indicator of one’s entire orientation or romantic interests.
I am not a violent person by nature, but not all violent thoughts which enter my mind are ego dystonic. I may enjoy fantasizing about blowing up a building or something. This doesn’t mean I am a terrorist. It means I need to accept that there are thoughts going through my head that are different from my general life choices and yet may amuse me. I’m not about to go shopping for explosives.
You have now assessed that the problem is one of over-generalizing the presence of ego-syntonic gay thoughts for masturbation purposes as meaning the absence of all heterosexual life. I agree. The problem is what you are thinking ABOUT this, not the thoughts themselves.
Great job out there Mr Jon,
I’m glad I found this article. I hope that more research will be done on this issue, which is very broad.
Me once again. I’ve got some personally valuable remarks after reading your superb article Jon (I wrote my remarks on Jon’s precious pieces of advice and added something from me):
1. A person cannot come to any definite conclusion (including making oneself 100% sure of their sexuality) based on some obsessional thoughts;
2. Thoughts cannot change us in any way and do not determine who we really are, as there are both thoughts which are ego-dystonic and ego-syntonic in our minds(in fact, thoughts go on non-stop in our minds and only we decide which thoughts do we want to focus on – but if we are OCD’ers we can hardly choose the thoughts we want – and instead there are thoughts we do not want);
3. Groinal response is a tricky thing. It is happening down there all the time, e.g men’s scrotum shrinks or stretches all the time to adjust the proper temperature of the testicles. Therefore, if one bothers too much about those scrotum movements (perhaps there are some aspects of groinal response than just scrotum adjustments) they might be greatly misled. It is worthwhile, as Jon stated, to be aware that groinal response has nothing to do with sexual arousal.
4. I live in a constant fear of getting erection to the things I would not like to be attracted to. I must say that Jon’s words that we sometimes may be sexually aroused by things we are not attracted to have been very relieving for me.
5. Next, no one can find a 100% proof of anything by just thinking/mental checking/ruminating, especially caused by fears and obsessions.
6. Last but not least, I read somewhere that if we fear that something bad will happen to us and we worry about it a lot (all the time), there is almost 100% certainty that the feard thing will not happen.
To sum up, I would like to ask for Jon’s remarks if I am correct in what I wrote, or are there any misinterpretations/misconceptions present in my little work?
Dear Jon,
I am very impressed by your article. Some Years ago I read an article which was written by a homosexual suffering of ocd.
(NOT HOCD!)
http://www.brainphysics.com/yourenotgay.php
Maybe its relevant to you, though the author is not writing as scientific as you do. If been suffering of HOCD as well for 2,5 years. You must have done a lot of research to people with this kind of hocd, you really covered a broad spectrum.
I somehow can find myself in any of these. In Forums you always get told to let your thoughts flow, but you defined it very precisely. Well to me it always is like this: I read an article like this, which shows me ways to solve my problem. I really try to do this things, but after a few days I turn back to the usual mental and behavourial patterns of ocd.
Aged eighteen, HOCD occured the first time to me on a cannabis trip. Since I was fourteen my sexual orientation had beenI simply didnt think about it.
Back then when it first struck me I really was shocked. I couldnt believe, that I were to be GAY! I carried this for 2,5 years now and there are ups and downs, but I get along. I could imagine many people commited suicide beacause of OCD and HOCD. But I found out, that Life is just to good to end it in such young years.
Anyways, I just wanted to let you know these brief information and might give u a feedback on your tactics later on. I need to acquire tolerance for these thoughts and feelings. This cannot be a problem for me since I am very tolerant minded towards other people.
kind regards!
Christian
P.s.: Did u notice that im not a native speaker?
Luke, very well put notes. If I understand your final point, it is that worrying does not bring about results, and that the feared consequences generally have an ALMOST 100% certainty of not coming true, regardless of what you may think at the time. Thank you for your comments!
Dear Jon, yes, you understood me right.
I’ve got one more question: can it be possible that addiction to pornography can fuel the obsessive-compulsive cycle? I fear I am addicted to pornography – I tried to stop several times but I failed. Right now, I have a filter blocking pornographic material – and haven’t been viewing porn for several days (I hope I can be free of it at last). It’s difficult for I have some nightmarish withdrawal symptoms and my obsessions seem to worsen very much. My OCD tries to tell me, for example, that if I don’t view porn to reassure myself I can lose my orientation. I’ve been watching it for almost 10 years now ;(. Can it be possible that if I stop viewing such material I may gradually get better and stop worrying that I may lose my true sexual preference (I hope you remember I regard myself homosexual)?
Mr. Hershfield,
I am truly desperate and scared. I am not sure if the therapy I’m receiving is correct for treating OCD, and I was hoping you could give me some insight into this. I’ve researched OCD many times and have noticed the best treatment for it is cbt, along with erp and practicing mindfulness. The psychologist I am seeing does believe in the practice of mindfulness is useful for HOCD, but does not advocate the use of erp because of the lack of physical compulsions. He also thinks that I should find the “root” of my OCD problem, and that my OCD might have stemmed from repressing certain impulses. Hearing my psychologist mention these things, was confusing and left me wondering if I should continue this kind of treatment.
Also I wanted to know with your experience of HOCD if emotional checking was common in your patients. What I mean by emotional checking is the monitoring of emotional responses to those of the same sex. I am asking because while doing this, I usually make myself very very anxious. The slightest hint of feeling anything will lead to me having an anxiety attack. I dont mean to be a bother, but I could really use a professional opinion on this.
Thank You
I’ve got a question regarding the sexual OCD treatment. As I found out in literature as well as from my own experience, most compulsions in this kind of OCD go on in a person’s mind (apart from avoidance and reassurance seeking, which however, can also be done mentally) and I read in some book that covert compulsions can hardly be addressed by ERP (I know it because I tried it), so – according to your practice, what are the best ways to deal with the covert compulsions?
Luke, pornography addiction is a form of sex addiction, which is a separate clinical issue from ocd. However, it is not unusual for ocd sufferers with sexual obsessions to view pornography compulsively and this can lead to addiction. Behavioral strategies like blocking your computer can be helpful, but you may need to seek help from a specialist in sex addiction if you keep breaking your own rules.
>>>My OCD tries to tell me, for example, that if I don’t view porn to reassure myself I can lose my orientation.
—OCD likely tells you a lot of things. Sexual orientation is not a thing to be lost or found. It simply is. Compulsive reassurance is guaranteed to backfire in the end and is the fuel for your ocd. Consider that you do not compulsively reassure yourself that the sky is blue and have not lost your ability to see it that way.
Gaby,
You write, “The psychologist I am seeing does believe in the practice of mindfulness is useful for HOCD, but does not advocate the use of erp because of the lack of physical compulsions.”
—This is a STRONG indicator that this psychologist has inadequate experience treating ocd. Any ocd specialist will know that mental compulsions are just as important to treat and are as treatable as physical ones. Various ERP techniques can be applied, including non-avoidance, non-reassurance seeking, labeling mental review, and imaginal exposure to triggering thoughts and feelings.
>>> He also thinks that I should find the “root” of my OCD problem, and that my OCD might have stemmed from repressing certain impulses. Hearing my psychologist mention these things, was confusing and left me wondering if I should continue this kind of treatment.
—Language like this indicates a psychoanalytic agenda on the part of the therapist and research has shown quite clearly that this is not an effective treatment for ocd.
>>>Also I wanted to know with your experience of HOCD if emotional checking was common in your patients. What I mean by emotional checking is the monitoring of emotional responses to those of the same sex. I am asking because while doing this, I usually make myself very very anxious. The slightest hint of feeling anything will lead to me having an anxiety attack.
—Excellent question. Yes, emotional checking, just like mental checking and checking for groinal response, is very common in HOCD. Many sufferers worry that if they “feel” something around the wrong sex, then it must mean something about their desire for that person. They then compulsively monitor their feelings and try to reassure themselves that they are having the “right” ones at the “right” time. This ends up backfiring by fueling the ocd and making the sufferer feel uncertain about their emotions.
Luke, with every mental health issue there comes a mythology behind it. One of the great myths about ocd is that covert or mental rituals are somehow not treatable and that people can be “purely” obsessional. In reality, mental compulsions are treatable in much the same way that physical compulsions are. ERP works by exposing to the thing you fear and resisting the urge to respond with compulsions. If the compulsion is to neutralize unwanted sexual thoughts, ERP would be to expose to something that triggers that sexual thought and resist the urge to tell yourself you don’t like it. More intensive ERP would include agreeing with and exaggerating the thought, also known as flooding. Another common way to treat mental compulsions is through imaginal exposure. This is done by writing a narrative (or recording it in audio) describing the fear coming true and exposing to that while resisting compulsions.
I have had hocd for about 17 years now, and I have the groinal response hocd, but what’s been happening for the past year the response is stronger and now I get like excitement feelings and my penis gets a little bigger and when I test myself with gay sexual thoughts I don’t know that I don’t like it anymore and when my penis moves when this is happening I think this means I am gay or bisexual…..what’s going on, is it just ocd?
Dana, you need to recognize that “testing yourself” is a compulsion that sends the message to your brain that there is a debate over your sexuality. You need to stop doing compulsions.
Thank you Jon. But what about this excitement? feeling I somettimes get now and more movement in private area than just the groinal response I mostly have gotten, and it feels real lately
Jon,
Thanks for giving me insight on my current therapist. I’ve mentioned to my therapist that I constantly doubt my OCD diagnosis, despite being diagnosed numerous times as having OCD. He said something that stuck me as funny it went along the lines “usually someone who is diagnosed as OCD recognizes it and they don’t constantly doubt. Why is it that people with OCD doubt their diagnosis? On some occasions, I have had panic attacks doubting my OCD.
Thank you very much for your replies Jon. I really appreciate that.
Jon, thank you very much for your replies! Dana, I know too well what you and all of us suffering from HOCD are going through. This problem touches people of all sexual orientations. In general OCD is a very tricky devilry and has many facets. I read plenty of books on the subject of OCD, in order to better know and understand it. Here are some facts about OCD I would like to share with you as I find them quite important (Jon please correct any mistakes you find in my remarks).
Some of the compulsions very often seen in HOCD (according to my OCD experience as well as what I observe in others) include:
1. Trying to reassure ourselves (both physically, e.g. by trying to find out whether something we watch arouses us or not, or mentally, e.g. by producing disgusting thoughts in order to find whether we like them or not);
2. Trying to avoid certain situations which can produce much anxiety;
3. Suppressing thoughts. In fact, we cannot stop thoughts, no one can. Once, Eckhart Toll said: “Whatever you fight, you strengthen, and what you resist persists”. When we fight the obsessive thoughts, they become stronger, when we try to resist those thoughts, they persist;
4. Making associations (finding similarities in shape/colours/smell etc.) with the feared things – Jon please write us whether I am correct at this one, because I am not sure whether it is a compulsion or obsession.
There are of course other compulsions/rituals/neutralizing acts. In fact, they will work only for some time alleviating anxiety but soon we will find they do not work any longer. In the long run compulsions only REINFORCE the obsessive-compulsive cycle. What we really SHOULD AVOID are COMPULSIONS themselves. We cannot stop our thoughts but we can change our responses to them (instead of compulsions).
What we really fear and cannot stand in any form of OCD are the feelings of uncertainty and anxiety as well as the uncertainty itself. We want to be 100% sure of something. In general, OCD is a disorder in which the sufferers (me too, of course) cannot stand uncertainty in some fields (which we find important, often exaggerating). Unfortunately, both our biology (e.g. insufficient amount of serotonin and other neurotransmitters in particular parts of the brain) and cognitive coping mechanisms (what we learnt and think may be useful in coping with anxiety) fail to deal with uncertainty. It is so, because we use the wrong coping mechanisms. Every bit of OCD boils down to us not accepting uncertainty in our lives (at least in specific areas).
Jon,
First of all, great article. I have two questions, the first is, how do I explain to someone the difference between HOCD and “pray away,” that bogus therapy that suggests a gay person can be made straight. I consider myself as a straight male suffering from HOCD. I do not believe I am in “denial” or trying to “change” my sexual orientation.
Second, will any therapist trained in CBT and OCD treatment be able to treat this form of OCD? Is it possible I could go to an OCD therapist and they will have never heard of this form of OCD and not know how to treat it? Thanks!
Jon,
Also wanted to ask, what does it mean to accept uncertainty? I have tried to not respond to my OCD thoughts and have had some success. Instead of trying to dispel the anxiety of the question, “Am I gay?” I ignore it. This leaves me drained eventually however. Will the anxiety ever stop? Will I ever have “certainty,” like I used to and stop doubting myself so much? Or will I have to accept that I will always be uncertain? Thanks.
Hello Jon!
I´m a 21-year old girl who (I think) suffer from sexual orientation-OCD. In December the thought “What if I´m gay?” popped up along with sexual images of me with other women and I had the word “GAY” in my head the whole time. This brought a huge amount of anxiety with it, it was hard to sleep at night, I felt nauseated and I lost weight and fell into some kind of depression. I had recently been through a tough time in school which probably was the onset of this along with a fear of boys I´ve had since I was 15.
I´ve always been a very shy girl and was bullied alot for it when I was younger, it escalated in my early teenage years (nothing physical, just psychological bullying).
Until December last year I was sure I was straight because I had crushes on boys as a kid but haven´t had one in several years. But I won´t deny that I´ve always found other girls pretty, I´ve always easily been able to tell which girls are goodlooking or not. This have made me think now that I´m not completely straight because I´m more aroused by the female body but as far as I know I´ve never had a crush on a girl. I sometimes looked at other girls breasts in the changingroom in school when I was a teenager. I know that envy was a part of it but now it makes me think if it could have meant something more.
Before it was gay-thoughts that disgusted me. Now I sometimes find them pleasant (only sometimes though) and I can´t even think “straight-thoughts” because it feels like they are intrusive and gives me huge anxiety. They were pleasant before. I can´t even look at the opposite sex anymore because I can feel anxiety build up in my body, not even famous guys (like Robert Pattinson) because it feels like I will have a panic attack. This depresses me, because before I was a “straight who feared being gay”, now I´m a “gay/bi that feares being straight”. I would accept being gay, I´ve already “accepted” it and even “fought” for it because I see no other way, but if I don´t feel attraction to the same sex I start doubting again. Even when I´ve “accepted” myself as gay and feel good and relaxed about I´ve still not been able to enjoy life fully because I still doubt and all my interests have been ripped from me.
I don´t want to live like this anymore, in this doubt and not knowing who I am. It´s like I have more sexual attraction towards girls, but don´t know if I can fall in love with one. I´m also a virgin and have never had a relationship.
I would be thankfull if you could give me some advice. Sorry if this is too long but I hope it´s alright.
Also, it feels like it would be “safer” being with a girl because they can´t hurt me like men can. Straight thoughts don´t really disgust me, but they make me really anxious and sad now.
Hi Jon, thanks so much for your articles.
I have had pure o since the tender age of 7. However having HOCD feels like a violation to my identity, dreams and rights. It is a threat to all I have ever wanted and the life I have lived in the past. I am in the ’spectrum HOCD’.
I am female and in my non-HOCD state I am very attracted to males, even considered a flirt. I am relaxed happy and comfortable. I had same-sex fantasies while masturbating and they are sometimes about people I know which makes it even more naughty and arousing. However I am secure enough in my heterosexual identity. Having HOCD has ‘numbed’ me and I feel disconnected from the world and my past and future selves. Is this a normal symptom? It has majorly reduced my quality of life.
Letting go of my OCD seems especially hard because ‘letting go’ means ‘giving in’ to the threatening thoughts and therefore accepting that I could be gay, which is terrifying. So I sort of see having this anxiety and OCD as better than not having it because then I could turn gay. I am very aware of how irrational and silly this is.
Jon,
I do have arousals to the same sex, but I am not sure if they actually are arousals. I find relief when I don’t have them, as I don’t like them, and I have always had romantic feelings toward the opposite sex. But my attraction to the opposite sex has diminished, will it return? I have zero interest in dating the same sex, and I despise my arousal to the same sex (if that’s what it is.) It makes me sick, it’s not like I hate that it won’t be accepted, I hate the thought itself. My HOCD makes me just feel like I am gay, but I get such happiness and relief out of my straight thoughts. Is it possible this arousal to the same sex could just be a mix up of admiration? Because I hate the idea of something sexual with the same sex.
Hi Jon,
Good article! I was wondering, can you be gay and not even like men? I mean, I have spectrum HOCD, but I dont feel attracted to men. I cant imagine myself with another man. And I dont want to be with another man. I mean, for all my life, and to this day, I have ALWAYS been attracted to women. I have a countless number of crushes on girls, and I have never even taken a thought at homosexuality before HOCD. Now my whole day is filled with obssessing over HOCD. I am so depressed, because having spectrum HOCD means that I am at least somewhat homo, and that just doesnt roll with me. Because I want to feel 100% straight, I dont think I even have confidence to date anymore. I fear any relationship will end up with a break-up. Sigh…I dont feel like a man anymore. I feel so bad…I wish I had a different type of HOCD. Sometimes the only way I am able to deal with the uncertainty is to fall back on to suicidal ideation, I tell myself, why does any of it matter if you are dead? But the suicidal thoughts cause me sadness too, I want to be with the girl I love, yet I am tormented by my own my mind. Jon, is there any medical treatment to get rid of spectrum HOCD, I mean such as being injected with more teresterone?
Thanks,
Tom
Jon,
Great article, much more informative than the forums,I am 18 years old and I have spectrum HOCD, so here is my question: Is there a way to get rid of a fantasy? I think if I direct my energy to getting rid of an unhealthy fantasy, than it will get better. I think there probably is, because it is not like I am changing my sexual orientation or anything. I know I am straight, I know deep down I am. I am almost 100% sure I am straight. But if I get an occasional homo fantasy, which causes me despair, and too be honest is not healthy for me or others around me. Because it is nothing but the occassional homo fantasy that causes me to be depressed and want to go terminate my own life. They say healthy fantasies are good, but a fantasy that makes you want to brutally harm or maim yourself isnt healthy. I have a problem with depression, I know if I dont get the ocassional fantasy, I will be able to get better. Some people tell me that I should accept what is, but I know I cant accept it because, I wont feel like a man if I did. I have always liked feeling macho, I cant look at myself in the mirror if I did accept it. Might this be just be a phase? Will this phase pass? Because I really never had any occasional homo fantasies 5 months before. It started in january of this year. And you cant really say it because of puberty or anything, because I am almost out of the puberty period. I am not going through an identiy crisis, because I truly do know who I am. I just want these ocassional disturbing fantasies to stop. So I can stop wanting to take my own life, when these fanatasies drive me to the edge.
Frank,
You ask, “how do I explain to someone the difference between HOCD and “pray away,” that bogus therapy that suggests a gay person can be made straight.”
My suggestion is that you not waste your energy trying to explain things to people that they are not capable of understanding. The difference is that OCD is a clinical disorder and homosexuality is the state of being a homosexual. It’s a similar difference between apples and staplers. They are unrelated.
I don’t think all proponents of “pray away” are necessarily bigots, but that their religious beliefs may blind them from a fundamental understanding about both human sexuality and mental health. There’s a pretty good film about “pray away” called Save Me, which I sometimes recommend to male clients for ERP when treating their HOCD.
Anyway, cognitive behavioral therapy is the most effective treatment for ocd. Praying something away may be a strategy for something, but it is not a treatment for anything.
Praying away Michelle Bachmann on the other hand may be worth a shot.
You ask, “will any therapist trained in CBT and OCD treatment be able to treat this form of OCD? Is it possible I could go to an OCD therapist and they will have never heard of this form of OCD and not know how to treat it?”
I believe any therapist who actually is experience treating ocd with cbt will have encountered this form of ocd. They may not call it HOCD, but it is unlikely that they will have treated many ocd clients and never encountered one with sexual obsessions. When seeking treatment, it is totally appropriate to ask how much experience they have treating ocd, do they primarily use CBT, do they use ERP (this is important), and are they familiar with sexual orientation ocd.
To your question about accepting uncertainty, the important thing to remember is that there is no certainty. There is just a sense of “good enough” that we all live with for everything, including whether or not the sky is blue. Accepting uncertainty about gay thoughts means accepting that those are simply the thoughts you are having and it is not necessary nor POSSIBLE to know for 100% what they mean. Instead, you must be willing to go with the assumption that they don’t mean much of anything and choose the lifestyle you happen to actually prefer. The end result of stopping the compulsive analysis of your thoughts IS the sense of certainty you are seeking. If you spent as much time studying the blueness of the sky, it would eventually seem somewhat green or purple to you and this may make you very philosophical indeed.
JCSweden,
Of course it’s always difficult to get the full picture of what someone is going through in a forum like this, so whether you are gay, straight, bi, or whatever is hard to tell. I recently discovered the word omnisexual, which is my new favorite word.
At a glance, I see this as some form of spectrum HOCD where the issue is not so much about what thoughts are enjoyable, but a problem with over-attending to the idea that you need a label to define yourself. The compulsion is to hyper-analyze your attraction to girls OR your attraction to guys OR your lack thereof and come to some sort of elusive conclusion about who you are. This results in endless internal debate over something that no amount of analysis will resolve.
The issue may be further complicated by the fact that you have not had sexual experience and may have ambivalent feelings about what kind of sexual experience you would enjoy the most. The only strategy that will be effective is to stop trying to be sure and wait and see what happens. Someone told me once that we never make big decisions. We make small ones, like what to put on a sandwich. Who we fall in love is based on a much more chaotic set of circumstances we rarely have any way of predicting.
As for your theory that lesbian relationships are safer because men are more likely to hurt you, you can google the subject of lesbian domestic violence and pretty quickly see studies demonstrating that they are statistically similar to heterosexual relationships in this regard.
Hannah, what I am hearing you say is that you are a heterosexual woman who has gay fantasies sometimes. You enjoy them, but you are concerned that they make you somehow less straight. You describe the thoughts and fantasies as threatening, but this is because of distorted ideas you have about them. Many straight people have gay fantasies and don’t see themselves as being on any spectrum of sexuality. They just enjoy what they enjoy and prefer what they prefer.
You write, “So I sort of see having this anxiety and OCD as better than not having it because then I could turn gay. I am very aware of how irrational and silly this is.”
This indicates that you have good insight into the ocd, but are somewhat afraid of calling its bluff. This is totally normal. But if you want to get better, the path to freedom from your discomfort is in accepting and willingly exposing to the so-called “threatening” thoughts. People don’t “turn gay” from thinking about gay stuff any more than they turn into salads from thinking about lettuce. But you are going to have to be willing to FEEL like you are at risk in order to override the ocd circuits.
Looking_Ahead,
You sounds like a very straight-forward case of HOCD. My suggestion is that you get cognitive behavioral treatment from an ocd specialist to get better. Over-attending to arousal sensations is not the same thing as having sexual desire, but your ocd wants you to do compulsions, so it will tell you to keep checking. The checking fuels the debate.
Tom, you describe yourself as having spectrum HOCD, meaning you have gay sexual fantasies about men and you enjoy them, but you obsess over what they mean about you. Then you go on to say that you are not attracted to men at all and are incapable of imagining yourself being with a man. This doesn’t sound like spectrum anything. It just sounds like old-fashioned HOCD and a compulsive need for certainty.
To answer your question about medical treatments, it is true that some medications can be helpful for reducing obsessive thinking, but cognitive behavioral therapy has a better track record of reducing ocd symptoms than meds.
You do sound significantly depressed, and if you are experiencing suicidal ideation as part of this depression, please seek treatment asap. Often times it is important to treat the depression before any headway can be made with the ocd.
You asked about testosterone, but I don’t know how that is supposed to be related to being straight. Most of the gay men I have known appear far more testosterone-heavy than me! In any case, you have an anxiety disorder, not a hormone problem.
Tom, I disagree with the notion that fantasies can even be unhealthy to begin with. Fantasies happen in your head. Nothing that happens in your head is dangerous to anything outside of your head. We might say that fantasizing about being hit in the head with a hammer is unhealthy, but that’s just labeling. Actually hitting yourself over the head with a hammer is the unhealthy thing. You say your fantasies are unhealthy because they make you want to hurt yourself. I think a better way of understanding the problem is that you have THOUGHTS about what your fantasies MEAN and this causes FEELINGS that make you DEPRESSED, which distorts your thinking in a negative way.
As such, it makes little sense to try to force yourself not to have fantasies. If your fantasies are leading to compulsive masturbation or relationship problems, than it is the behaviors and the relationship that needs to be worked on, not the things you occasionally like to imagine. If the things you are thinking about these fantasies are making you unhappy, then this way of thinking is what needs to be addressed, not the fantasy itself.
Dana, you ask “what about this excitement?” You should look at your attempts to understand and define your physical sensations as compulsions. Of course it feels real. It feels real to someone with contamination ocd that they are at risk of getting AIDS from a door knob if they don’t wash their hands. Feeling real is not evidence of reality. Checking your groin to make sure it is having the response you want only makes it impossible for you to feel it is having the right response.
Gaby, doubting an ocd diagnosis is very common. The sufferer wants certainty that the thing they fear will not come true. Evidence that their fears are unfounded (such as an ocd diagnosis) are reassuring but often scrutinized in much the same way evidence of straightness is disregarded in HOCD. I would say doubting you have ocd is the second most common ocd symptom there is. In my opinion the most common ocd symptom is the belief that your obsession is uniquely untreatable.
Jon,
I’m asking myself the question if I have spectrum OCD. Since I became scared of being gay I started to check myself on arousal by looking to man/woman, in my fantasies and in movies. Somethimes, when I force myself to think about sex with man, it gets me aroused. In the beginning it didn’t much to me, but lately I sense more arousal. Is this because I’m accepting being gay, or is that because I’m telling to enjoy it?
Some day it can turn me on and some day not. When I say to myself to be realistic (asking the question If I see myself with an other man) takes away the aroused feeling. Or if I see two man kissing it takes away that aroused feeling. I can’t imagine to do that, or love a man.
But it makes me crazy cause I don’t know what I am. I don’t like man at all. When I see (every person) then I get that strange feeling which I can’t place and I want to avoid them, can’t look at them and don’t like to talk to them. This because when I see them I get unwanted thoughts like “do I feel attracted, how would it be if I had sex with him, does this make me happier then talking to a woman e.t.c”. Im getting scared to get outside and talk to peple. Almost all day I keep thinking about it to see if I’m getting aroused. But all I ever wanted is to fall in love with a nice girl.
I think I have spectrum. I tell myself to accept it beacause I think/feel and see myself as gay. This because I can get aroused when I force myself to think about homosexual things. So I’m starting to masturbate on all those thoughts and tell myself to enjoy it. But it makes me feel misserble and more disorientated cause I don’t think it gives me the same satisfied feeling with woman. But then I again. When I’m with my girlfriend I get these unwanted thoughts which flashes through my head “you don’t enjoy her, do you actually love her, does a man makes me happier”. This I can’t stop and makes me crazy because I don’t enjoy the time being with her as I normally did.
Or do I think that I have spectrum because of OCD?
Daemon, again I think you are misinterpreting what i mean by Spectrum HOCD. You don’t sound to me like a person who genuinely enjoys homosexual fantasies. You sound like a person who is afraid he enjoys homosexual fantasies and compulsively checks and analyzes them. Accepting that you have gay thoughts in your head sometimes is not the same thing as accepting that you are on the spectrum between straight and gay any more than the average person is.
Trying to know for sure how you feel about your thoughts is a compulsion and is fueling your ocd. And forcing yourself to get aroused and succeeding is not evidence of anything in particular. Since it is done in the service of determining your sexual orientation, it is a compulsion.
In my opinion, based on what you have written thus far, you have more traditional HOCD than what I have been calling “spectrum HOCD” as you don’t sound like someone who is, for lack of a better expression, just a little gayish and obsessing about its meaning. I think you are just trying to convince yourself you are because that seems like it will result in a greater sense of certainty. In any case, even if I am wrong about that, you should get cognitive behavioral therapy to treat your ocd, whichever made-up label we have agreed to add to it.
Hey Jon,
So I’m now about a month into my exposure and response prevention work and to be honest, my views on it change everyday. Some days it seems to help, but others I don’t seem so sure I notice a change. My therapist has me writing my thoughts down repeatedly on a piece of paper. I’m not really quite sure if I’m just not sticking with it long enough or what.
The other day though I could literally feel a break in my mind from the OCD where I felt free to think about whatever I wanted and no longer had any anxiety or intrusive thoughts while having sex with my girlfriend. That was a great day…
I’m not sure if it was having that moment that made me lazy with my ERP and stop trying to one up my thoughts in my head by saying “I am gay! It’s great!” that let me get sucked back in or what, but I want that feeling back, and have hit my work hard trying to get back to that place.
The other problem I am having now is the fact that I can actually get the thoughts off of my mind for a period of time. It worries me because I don’t feel the way I felt the other day yet, and when I catch myself not thinking about the OCD and come back to it, I get a bad feeling because I still don’t feel back to normal but now I’m not obsessing as bad either. This makes it feel like once the obsessions stop for longer and longer periods of time I will just remain with a feeling of being homosexual and not dwelling on it, which inevitably causes deeper anxiety. I hope that makes sense. Any Insight?
Thanks in advance.
Hi Jon,
I think I’ve recently begun to suffer HOCD. I’m 17 (young still, I know), but have always identified myself as heterosexual. I’ve never had any homosexual fantasies, nor have wanted to have any homosexual relationships. Before now, I’ve always been confident in my identity and in the fact that I had no desire to engage in homosexual acts. I’ve been in heterosexual relationships before now, and have thoroughly enjoyed them.
A few weeks ago, however, after becoming interested in a guy, I suddenly became repulsed by the thought of being with him/etc. This was an extremely disturbing thought – I began checking to see if this would apply to all guys I met. (thus begins the freak out…) Suddenly, the thought occured to me that, since I was repulsed by this guy I had liked…did this mean I was gay? As before mentioned, I had never had any gay thoughts or fantasies.
I began checking by looking at members of both sexes. Because I was so freaked out, all this did was increase anxiety. Next, I began to wonder “Wait, could I have been gay all this time and not have known? Can I suddenly become gay? How do I know if I’m gay or not?”
I’ve always thought that I had OCD tendencies (counting in patterns, arranging obsessively, constant worrying, strange religious superstitions), but I’ve never mentioned them to my parents, because I thought I was being silly. However, this current situation is just torturous. While looking at OCD-related articles on the internet, I finally came across one that discussed HOCD – the symptoms described what I was feeling exactly.
I know my thoughts are irrational. Sometimes, I can overcome them, and feel like myself again. But, eventually, I come back to feeling anxious/worried and return to experiencing intrusive thoughts. I honestly don’t feel even remotely well at the moment – I’m subject to random bouts of crying and constant anxiety.
Is there an effective way I can handle this at home? Or, is it just time for me to see a therapist/specialist? If I sought out a specialist, could this dramatically help with my current situation?
Much thanks in advance for all of your advice!!
Thanks Jon. Im sorry, but does that mean that the movement in my groin…sometimes more movement than at other times…..means that it is the “right” response- that it means that I am gay or biisexual?
Jon,
Thanks for replying, you have been great help to me. I was wondering in your previous post. You mentioned that I dont have spectrum HOCD, but if I get these….yeah, would that not indicate I do have spectrum HOCD. It seems like my HOCD started off not as spectrum HOCD, but as all or nothing HOCD 4 years ago. But it was rather weak until january of this year, until I got these….Before it use to be, that I would get obssessive thoughts but not suicidal ones. And also, before it use to be that when I would fall in love with a girl, all the fear and doubt would go away, but soon would appear after. And too be 100% honest, I have never had a crush on a dude before. 100% for sure. I have always liked girls. And if I were to answer the question, would I like to have *** sex, then my answer would be, hell no. I would have a heart attack right there. I am quite terrified of anything homosexual in real life. Not because I am a homophobe, I am not, but those kind of things just scare me. Last year at school, I saw another dude slap another on the butt, I had a super huge anxiety attack, I ran out of the classroom and I barfed everything out of my stomach into the toilet. I have talked to suicide support, they are very helpful indeed. I think life is still worth living, if I could get over this HOCD. I want to be with the girl I love, I want to live life to the fullest.
-Tom
What more is that HOCD is causing me so much emotional pain, I love this girl so bad, but it feels like HOCD is forcing me into becoming gay, and I have to give her up. =(
Thanks for reply John,
Think you are right. I have always been insecure about myself. So when I’m with other people I always have that small and strange feeling beneath which I can’t label. Some day I thought this feeling was caused by arousal. So I thought I might be gay and got afraid. This feeling I have almost all day, so I don’t understand why I associated this feeling with being gay. But on that point I start to force myself to have homosexual fantasies to be sure about it which sometimes backfires cause it doesn’t always give me the result I want.
So strange and almost unimaginable that OCD can tell you so many things, or make you feel/experience/belief things that aren’t true.
First I thought this was all because of alcohol. When I was 12 I begin with consuming alcohol and when my brother got cancer I began to drink from friday till sunday and got scared of getting home because of his physical conition. The sunday, monday, tuesday my thoughts were uncontrollable and since then it never changed. But when I stopped drinking it still occurs and the same feeling is present. So it must be OCD
As far as I know I always wake up with a negative feeling. A feeling which I have given many labels over the last Years (work, fysical condition, friends, relationships, enviroment, sexual orientation etc)
I’ve bought the book from Jonathan Grayson you suggested. And now I think I have OCD from since I was young. I remember that I always stay’d up till 11 pm. Just to be sure that my mon will come home alive. Making myself believe that no one liked me, my family hated me, thoughts of being adopted. Many of these scenario’s I was evaluating in my head. Thinking up what could happen and what I should do if it happens, and how I would feel. Sometimes I cried by these thoughts and sometimes these negative thoughts gave me satisfaction.
These are signs of OCD, right?
Sorry for another message. Maybe an interesting question and I curious if you heard more about it.
When I was 1 or 2 years old and I was in my bed I was starting to shake my head to the left/right until I fell asleep. When I was sad, or had bad thoughts this movement got faster. Sometimes (It sounds strange) I I tapped/hit my head against the wall during this left/right movement. Sometimes powerful, sometimes softer. This never changed till I was 15/16. I thought about it and it was strange for me because I didn’t know why I did it and no one else did it. I was ashamed for this and my neck started to hurt. So I managed to stop it after several months.
And now I remember, since then I never slept well. So I started to lifting heavy weights (3/4 days in week) so I got physically broken and managed to sleep earlier. Now because of an injury I can’t do any sports and I sleep very late and now I noticed that I have that urge to shake my head to the left/right to fall in sleep.
But when I repeat this left/right thing with my head to fall in sleep. Im so relaxd and I don’t have any worries/fears. I do have thoughts, but they don’t bother me. Im happy then.
Was this OCD, was it a habbit, or did I develop my own treatment against bad feelings/thoughts? Or is my brain not right?
I saw something about EMDR which describes: (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) incorporates elements of cognitive-behavioral therapy with eye movements or other forms of rhythmic, left-right stimulation. Could this connect?
Hi jon,
I have one more question, is it good enough that a mere two weeks ago, before my HOCD really got the best of me, I was so deeply love-sick over a girl, that I have HOCD and am not gay? At that time, I was so depressed because she didnt show any interest in me, and I was contemplating about commiting suicide in order to get her attention. I was so severely depressed over her at that time. I didnt know what to do, it felt my heart was being ripped apart, I felt so inadequate for her. And now HOCD is trying to force me into thinking I really didnt like her, and I forced myself into liking her? Sigh…is that really the truth? It felt so real at that time….I was so damn depressed during that period…every word she said I had to analyze….every thing she did I had to check for the faint hope that something would indicate she is interested in me…..but I am not sure now…And btw, I have talked to suicide prevention both on telephone and online. They help a bit. But I am not comfortable in telling them everything. I am afraid they will call back and tell somebody else that I am suicidal. That would not be good, I dont want ruin somebody else’s day over this crap. I am also going through therapy too, its rough, I dont exactly like telling everything to a therapist in person until I get to know the person better. I have been prescribed zoloft for my depression, I hope meds would make me better.
-Tom
Hi Jon,
I am posting again, because I feel I really need your support right now, it has been extrmely hard for me for the past few days, because for one, the anxiety is gone, I am so damn scared, why is the anxiety gone? Am I starting to accept the stupid thoughts for real? I dont want to accept them? Have I gotten comfortable with being a homo or something? I am so damn scared….I am even more depressed without the anxiety, I am so damn depressed it feels like the end of the world again….I am so damn depressed, all I want is a girl-friend and a modest life. What more do I ask for!?!?! Even worse I have no desire for women now, I can look at a hot girl, and my mind is just blank. I am so scared. I am on zoloft, I am addicted to it now. It is addicting stuff. I have always had crushes on girls before, but now, nothing. All I think about is HOCD thoughts. I am just so saddened, why me? I must be a homo..damn it…I must be a homo. I cant think about Tay, I cant think about the hopes and dreams I had for both of us before HOCD. This HOCD is killing everything. I am being forced into this hell, and if it turns out I am slowly becoming a homo… well it wont get to that point…. I wont ever be happy again. All my dreams are destroyed because of this disease. I feel so sickened to the point, that I am depressed as ever. I am being tortured so bad. I have no libido at all, I use to be hooked to pornography since I was in grade 5, I have already graduated high school now, maybe I got bored of pornography. Maybe pornography killed my libido? This reassurance is so damn addicting, I am so addicted to reassurance, I need it like I need zoloft, if I dont get zoloft or reassurance, I go into depression. By the way, what does ego-systonic mean? You mentioned it in the article, I am not sure what it means. Please Doctor, I need to know what it means. I am going through therapy, but it isnt enough. I need zoloft. I need it so bad….People say zoloft isnt addictive, they are wrong, I know how addictive it is. I got addicted after two days of taking it. I get withdraw symptoms if I dont have it. I am so sorry doctor if this seems like a rant. I am so sorry. But I need the reassurance. I cant take it without reassurance. I hope I am not wasting your time. I feel like sh*t right now. My life is worthless. My life revolves around two things, zoloft and reassurance. What am I going to do!Why was I even born?!?
=( All those perfect dreams of me and tay being together has been smashed to bits. I am so depressed. I want my old self back, but I dont know if it will come back. It probably wont….HOCD is making me think I really dont care for it to be back…..
-tom
Jon,
I am a sufferer of HOCD. I was able to beat HOCD on my own a few years ago with the help of SSRI medications. The thing that lingers even until now is a some what spawning of another fear closely related to HOCD. I have this fear that I like transexuals. In particular I suffer from testing my arousal levels. As far as I know I cannot remember a time that I’ve had a fantasy about any type of transgendered person. I have gone the route of testing by masturbation. This thing haunts me and comes back every 4-6 months. The hardest part is that sometimes I do get aroused by testing my arousal response. I can continue to view the pictures and my response will actually decline. Also I do not always encounter arousal. The obsession that I will get is just out of the blue, “go and check if you can get aroused to transexuals.” I will tell myself that yes I can in order to just go with the thoughts but anxiety will eventually over power me and I will end up testing. If I do get aroused – the logical explanations and thoughts and arguments go on sometimes for days. There are other times where I can convince myself that yes, I do like them, I will cross that bridge when I get there if it ever does happen and it goes away. But I cannot get rid of this demon it will come back in a few months. Any ideas? I think the arousal thing kills me the most.
Hey Jon,
Thanks for answering my questions above. I have one more question. I am working on not giving myself reassurance or doing the mental compulsions I am used to doing when I get an OCD thought through my mind. While I have anxiety right when I get the thought, it wears away in time and I feel much better than I do when I just give myself reassurance right away. The only thing is, after a while of “accepting” these intrusive thoughts, my mind feels scrambled, even when I don’t respond to them. Then I feel I must give myself some “reassurance” to resort my mind and level it. Would this count as a compulsion? If there a way to accept intrusive thoughts without them “scrambling” my mind after repeated exposure? Thanks for all your help, it’s much appreciated. I also noticed that me coming to read this article may have turned into a bit of a reassurance compulsion so I’m trying to avoid coming back here often.
Hi Jon and readers,
Just a thought… I have done some analysis of my “groinal response” and realise I have two different sensations. One is when I’m anxious or nervous and usually anxious about hocd fears and that is best described as a muscle tightening. I mean when I feel something down there I now notice that my whole body appears stiff and rigid and a sensation can be felt wherever I put my focus (groin, knee, foot whatever). The second is distinctly dofferent and more relaxed but with an excited energy, I suppose, that makes me pleasantly restless and when I imagine a man in front of me that’s the feeling I get and I imagine myself grabbing them and pulling them in to me. It’s that feeling I have when I think about straight sex. What do you make of those differences and my interpretation?
Also, I find when I am with someone (dating, relationship even “hooking up”) who I really like the hocd thoughts very scarcely cross my mind and I am genuinely happier. I also can’t stop wanting to be affectionate towards when I’m with them which makes me think in hindsight “well that’s a straight indicator”. So why then, when I am not involved with someone, do I fear again? Could it be I am afraid of something greater than hocd itself such as loneliness? I just don’t know how to stop questioning when I know 99% how I feel.
Thank for any advice
Ryan, the trick is to stick with the ERP at higher and higher levels of discomfort without doing any mental rituals that might be aimed at reducing that discomfort. Often times people fall into the trap of checking and analyzing during an exposure exercise instead of focusing on keeping the discomfort up.
The other issue you mentioned is a problem with mental checking. When you become aware of the “quiet” moments, you start digging around your brain to see if you still have the obsession. It backfires. You need to focus on staying in the present. Don’t monitor where your feelings are. They will catch up to your thoughts in time.
Ann,
You write, “Suddenly, the thought occured to me that, since I was repulsed by this guy I had liked…did this mean I was gay?”
—This is a common black-and-white distortion in ocd. The assumption is that if you are repulsed by a man, you must therefore be enamored with a woman. Where is the evidence for this? How are these things even the least bit related? A healthier perspective would be to acknowledge that your feelings for this individual have changed and that there is currently no additional information available as to what it means about you.
You wrote, “Is there an effective way I can handle this at home? Or, is it just time for me to see a therapist/specialist? If I sought out a specialist, could this dramatically help with my current situation?”
—-It is clear from the rest of your post that you are suffering from obsessive compulsive disorder. Your best bet for getting your freedom back would be to get cognitive behavioral therapy from an ocd specialist. There is a good list of treatment providers at http://www.ocfoundation.org.
Dana, your question is itself an extension of the ocd, a reassurance seeking compulsion. Until you stop trying to be certain what groinal responses mean, they will always seem threatening to you and always be a way the ocd has power over you.
Tom, it is not important to know what “kind” of HOCD you have. I just made these terms up to demonstrate that people with ocd who obsess about their sexual orientation experience it in a lot of different ways. It sounds like you have a very strong anxiety response to your fear and this is treatable with CBT and ERP. You are not some rare case, just one in which it sounds like you are suffering a lot. Also, if you are at any time concerned for your safety or feeling suicidal, it is imperative that you contact local emergency help.
Daemon, good that you bought Grayson’s book and it is resonating you. You ask at the end of your post if it sounds like you have ocd. I would say the question is the answer.
As for your head movement issue, I’m not sure. Very young children do a variety of body repetitive movements for comfort. In more extreme cases this can be a sign of autism I think. This is not my field of expertise. EMDR does employ CBT strategies alongside repetitive eye movement, but there is some debate as to why this works when it does (it is considered more effective for PTSD than OCD).
At this stage the head movement ritual sounds strictly compulsive, so I would recommend choosing instead to tolerate the unwanted thoughts and feelings and accepting that it may or may not interfere in your sleep and it is not important to know for sure. It is probably a good idea for you to get set up with an ocd therapist when you can and consult with them on this issue.
Tom, in response to your more recent messages, you need to understand that reassurance is the problem, not the solution. You need to connect with a local treatment provider and start doing cognitive behavioral therapy – meds alone will not solve this problem. As for Zoloft being addictive, I think you are confusing side effects that come from inconsistent dosing with withdrawal. SSRI medications take anywhere from 6-12 weeks at therapeutic doses to demonstrate effectiveness. If you do not take them consistently, you may experience side effects. If and when one chooses to go off of an SSRI med like Zoloft, they do so gradually and with the guidance of their prescribing doctor. This is not the same thing as being physically addicted to something.
The main issue here is that you have significant untreated obsessive compulsive disorder and need to take that seriously. It is common for people with ocd to take a reduction in anxiety as a reason to be afraid that their unwanted thoughts will come true. You need to learn the cognitive skills for managing this distorted thinking and you need a structured exposure and response prevention strategy for getting control of your disorder. There is a good list of treatment providers at http://www.ocfoundation.org.
HOCDKiller, checking and testing for arousal is a compulsion that fuels your obsession. Stop doing compulsions and you will learn to habituate to the discomfort that temporarily lingers. Being aroused by transsexuals doesn’t mean anything in particular. Isn’t the point that half a good looking transsexual is pretty much hot to anyone? I think instead of testing yourself, you should let go of the idea that it is important to know for sure that you are only getting aroused to the “right” things and simply accept arousal when it occurs in the same way you can accept thoughts and feelings.
Frank, it would be best to resist reassurance seeking altogether. Look at the “scrambled” feeling as the ocd using an alternative method of causing you discomfort as it tries to get you to do compulsions. You can accept that you are feeling “scrambled” or you can tell yourself “I will feel scrambled forever, so be it.” The feeling will pass just like it did before.
Good insight in noticing that checking this article repeatedly is another form of reassurance. This has happened to many others. Resist checking in until a new article is posted or at least be sure not to check in as a direct response to anxiety.
Getting Better, I think there are two sides to your post. One is a healthy recognition that anxious and sexually aroused sensations can appear to be similar in the body but have differences in the way we relate to them. The other is a compulsive over-attendance to your physical sensations in a need for certainty – and this fuels your ocd.
You don’t need an “indicator” of your heterosexuality any more than you need an indicator of your height. It is what it is. The compulsive search for proof only makes your brain think there is some debate going on.
Also, many people find their ocd symptoms worsen when they are alone or when they don’t have a partner grounding them in reality (though relationships are also an easy target for ocd).
Perhaps the underlying fear is that if you were gay, you would not be allowed to love men, and if that were the case, you would be isolated and unloved, which you see as unacceptable. This is intriguing to consider, but not always useful for treatment purposes.
Hi Jon,
I have a question,can you explain in detail what ego-syntonic vs ego-dynostic means? I mean does ego syntonic thoughts mean that the thoughts give you happiness and confidence, while ego-dynostic gives you anxiety and fear?
-Thanks
Andy
Hi Jon,
I think I have spectrum OCD, does this mean I am gay. I seriously do not want to be gay. I always loved women before my HOCD has really hit me hard. And I really really wanted a girl-friend before this OCD started. I grew up liking girls. I am very saddened by this HOCD. It has become a 24 hour thing for me now, I ruminate 24/7 even when I am dreaming, I dream about ruminating. I feel so weak after so long battling this OCD. I am afraid if my OCD is gone, I will turn into a gay person. I remember a while back, when I was so in love with a girl, it felt so right…But now I dont know what to feel that way again. And also what does kinsey scale really mean, I dont understand what does it mean to be incidentally homosexual? I am so tired…just so tired. And I dont want to be a homosexual. I dont know what to do.
andy
Jon,
I have been on forums alot these days, and it seems alot of HOCD’ers have something that they call “false attractions”. Have you treated somebody with the so called “false attractions”? And what does it symbolize?
Andy,
Ego-dystonic means the thoughts are perceived by the thinker as being incongruent with their character or their sense of reality. Ego-syntonic means the thoughts are perceived as totally normal and realistic. Happiness or sadness in your response to them is not what determines dystonic vs syntonic. If you’d like to learn more about what these terms mean and how they apply to thoughts about sexuality, violence, etc., you can read one of our past articles that addresses the issue at http://www.ocdla.com/blog/ocd-law-2-816.
I’m not sure how to respond to the question, “I think I have spectrum HOCD, does this mean I am gay?” It means you have ocd, are not gay, but need to accept that you have gay thoughts and get cognitive behavioral therapy to treat your disorder.
I don’t know what the Kinsey Scale “means” other than it is a theory which suggests that human sexuality is fluid and not always black-and-white.
I don’t know what a “false attraction” is in clinical terms. A lot of people with ocd tend to ask themselves if they liked something and compulsively check their response. This could be to something they see as gay or any other thing they fear (harm ocd sufferers often refer to debating if they liked a violent thought).
Dear Jon,
I am 17 years old and have always been confident that I was heterosexual. About a month ago a thought popped into my head “what if I am bi?”. After that thought I started looking at pictures of women, and women in real life just to see if I was attracted to them, and I was never really sure. This freaked me out because I have never wanted to be bi, or gay. I’ve always wanted to grow up and fall in love with a man. I started looking up things about teenagers who realized they were gay or bi. But all the stories didn’t relate to me at all, all these girls had attraction or crushes on woman before and I never have. I talked to a friend about my discomfort and she said its probably just curiosity of the same sex, which is normal. This made me feel better for a couple of days, but in the back of my mind I still had these thoughts “Am I attracted to women? What if I am bi?” and I start breaking down crying. I stopped looking up stories and I felt a little better for a couple of days. But recently the thoughts have been in the back of my mind again and they scare me. I started looking up more stories and I stumbled upon HOCD. Now I have never had and OCD tendencies at all, but I was wondering if it sounds like I do have HOCD? I brought it up to my mother the other day and she doesn’t seem to take it seriously. I’m not sure what I should do. I wake up everyday feeling anxious and I just want to be myself again.
Hi,
Thank you for your response. I don’t understand what you mean in that happiness or sadness does not indicate whether a thought is ego or distonic.
When I reflect on past relationships I figure the fact that I have been happy in them and in particular, when intimate like even holding hands or touching etc that that indicates something that is natural to me. If it wasn’t natural I figure I would feel discomfort and would otherwise shy away from being in those situations. I KNOW I’ve enjoyed those experiences but I suppose my OCD is kicking in by me questioning if I enjoyed it from an intimate level or simply by being close with someone.
Why if I know do I keep questioning and waxing and waning between hocd thoughts?
I don’t look at this as me being allowed to do something or not (like you say, love men) that makes me disheartened it’s more that I can’t do the very thing I’ve wanted for so long and have enjoyed so many times (hen OCD symptoms are not present).
Also, another thought, does it not make sense that OCD sufferers are prone to analysising that if we really were gay then we would be? Isn’t it jut the discomfort of uncertainty and the fear of thinking we might do something that makes us feel uncomfortable/unnatural?
Thanks again
Dear Jon,
I also suffer from this form of OCD and I have had success eliminating it from affecting my life through CBT, exposure and not following through on the complusion to prove that I’m straight. It feel quite good to be free from the effects of it. The problem is, sometimes it feels too free, and I feel like I’m bored and missing the crazy thoughts. And then it comes back.
Bianca, you report waking up every day feeling anxious, having unwanted intrusive thoughts about your sexual orientation, over-analyzing thoughts, and engaging in compulsive checking rituals that involve things like looking at women and reading coming out stories to scan them for proof you are not gay. In other words, you have obsessions and compulsions that are taking up your day and making you unhappy. That’s what OCD is.
The first thing that needs to happen for you to get better is to accept that thoughts of gayness are thoughts, not threats, and that it is not important to make them go away. Then you need to stop doing compulsions that serve the opposite function. In other words, accept thoughts as thoughts, and don’t check to be sure. If you can get professional help, you would want to speak to an ocd specialist who does cognitive behavioral therapy.
Getting better…,
You wrote, “I don’t understand what you mean in that happiness or sadness does not indicate whether a thought is ego or distonic.”
—In a previous post, “Andy” asked if ego syntonic meant that the thoughts make you feel happy. My response to him was that this is not relevant to the term. It is not about how they make you feel. It is about whether or not you perceive them as being congruent with who you are and what is real.
You ask, “Why if I know do I keep questioning and waxing and waning between hocd thoughts?”
—I think it’s important to separate the presence of questions from the act of “questioning.” A question may pop up from the ocd that asks, “Am I gay?” Your response to that question and the questions you follow it up with are compulsions. Compulsions keep the obsession alive. Instead of questioning your thoughts, you will have to accept that it is not possible to know what thoughts mean, to instead shrug and let the thoughts be thoughts.
You write, “Also, another thought, does it not make sense that OCD sufferers are prone to analysising that if we really were gay then we would be? Isn’t it jut the discomfort of uncertainty and the fear of thinking we might do something that makes us feel uncomfortable/unnatural?”
—I’m not sure I understand the first question. Yes, people with ocd tend to compulsively over-analyze the meaning of their thoughts. And yes, OCD can essentially be boiled down to an intolerance of uncertainty.
Peter, this is not an unusual problem. You need to focus on staying in the present and accepting the content of your thoughts however they are. What you are doing is mental checking and trying to get a “feeling” of still having ocd. Gaining freedom from ocd often coincides with a sort of identity crisis, particulary for people who have been dealing with it for a long time.
Here is some more info on mental checking and on letting go of having ocd:
http://www.ocdla.com/blog/ocd-mental-checking-356
http://www.ocdla.com/blog/ocd-stockholm-syndrome-784
Hey Jon, I had an instance where I was at a public venue and in the mens room it was so crowded…I just urinated and was leaving but I had to squeeze in between people and what happened was my rear end brushed up against some guys privates and then I felt movement in my penis…I was panicked and annoyed….but does that mean I was aroused or that I am gay?
Dana, asking me if a movement in your penis means you are gay is a good example of a reassurance-seeking compulsion and something you should resist. If I say “yes” then it will freak you out and you will still have no sense of certainty as to whether I knew what I was talking about and then you would just continue to obsess. If I say “no” it might comfort you, but only fuels the ocd by sending the message to your brain that these thoughts are important and must be resolved with reassurance. Within a day or less, you will have more questions.
What I would suggest is that you first start by accepting that you had a thought about your penis moving and that, in and of itself, is not particularly important or worth analysis. But if you must attend to it, try to do so in a way that employs critical thinking. For example, if you WERE gay, and this same event happened but your penis did NOT move, would this be proof that you were secretly STRAIGHT? So ask yourself if in your experience every movement in your penis is proof of your orientation or if sometimes penises, dangly and unpredictable as they are, simply move.
Here is some more info on reassurance seeking: http://www.ocdla.com/blog/reassurance-seeking-ocd-anxiety-597
Hello Mr. Hershfield,
On days where I worry about homosexuality the most, I tend to dream of doing homosexual acts and liking it, and then I wake up in a state of panic. As anxiety settles in, my heart starts racing unpleasantly and doubt fills my mind again. It’s like a vicious cycle because the following day I worry and worry about the homosexual content of the dream, I do checking compulsions, and then another bad dream pops up the next night. Now I do have lots of good nights but why do I feel arousal in homosexual dreams? I’ve always thought I was straight. These dreams seem to fuel my anxiety because the arousal in them seems so real. My therapist told me that dreams tend to reflect our thought of ‘the day before’ and don’t actually mean that I am a homosexual. She said that if I am terrified of being a homosexual I will dream just that! But Jon, does that mean I am one? Why do homosexual thoughts in my walking life trigger so much anxiety? Is that how homosexuals usually are? but the arousal I experience in those dreams seems so real that it terrifies me. I cannot picture myself doing these act in my walking life and the mere thought of it disgusts me, but yet I wonder if these dreams are a signal for repressed feelings that I am not aware of? It’s gotten to the point where I don’t want to go to sleep anymore because I am terrified that I will get these ‘nightmares’ again.
I’ve alienated almost all of my female friends because I fear that I will become attracted to them or develop a sexual desire towards them.
Hey Jon,
I need some help here.
When I was a little girl, I always thought of myself as straight. Then when I was 12, I read an article about lesbians, and had the horrible thought; What of I’m gay?
I’ve been struggling with this for years, and I actually am sexually/emotionally attracted to women. Sometimes, to men, but not as intensely. My brain always has these horrible fantasies were I end up closeted and miserable, married to a man. I didnt ysed to be like this, but after I started worrying about this, and reading up on lesbian symptoms, the thought of men started to disgust me.
I figured I was gay and desperately tried to deny/to avoid it, or accept myself as bisexual.
Recently, I heard about his. As I’ve obsessed over this almost every day for three years, I think I might have HOCD (I have a history of depression and anxiety) but part of me wonders if I’m just looking for another way to deny my sexuality.
Please Help. I’m scared.
Gracie
Please help
Hi, -me again
How would you distinguish the two?
I just have another quick question.
I was doing some research and discovered there was such a thing as ego-dystonic homosexuality. Where homosexuals are just really uncomfortable with there true orientation because it goes against there idealized self-image. How can I be sure I have ocd and not that??
Thanks so much!
Val
Hi Jon,
I have been dealing with this problem for 13 years since I was 22. It feels weird when it’s not there, hence it is very much like you said an idenitity crisis. Sometimes the the thoughts are connected with very strong feelings and I start asking myself if I am just repressing these feelings. I did not know about HOCD for a long time and jsut found out about it recently. I’ve done some mindfullness and CBT execrises and they have almost scared me in how much different they have made me feel. I felt like I needed to go back to something that is familiar. This is a tough battle. I will keep working on it.
One more question. Can you suggest any treatment resources/therapists in Massachusetts?
Thank you for all the information.
Hi Jon,
So sorry to bother you again.
I just have another thought that popped in my head. After reading your articles and the comments, I can’t figure out if my thoughts about homosexuality are syntonic or dystonic… The only thing I can say is fantasizing about the opposite sex is what I’ve always done, and what has always felt good. On the other hands, these thoughts about the same sex are very troubling and trigger lots of anxiety within me. How do I know these thoughts are not who I really am? What if they trigger anxiety and fear because I can’t-or don’t -without knowing- want to accept them? You say I can’t base positive and negative feelings to discern them…well this confuses me… Fantasizing about the opposite sex feels good and doesn’t make me anxious whereas thinking about the possibility that I could be a homosexual and have to engage in such acts makes me really scared. I have searched the internet for definitions of ego-syntonic and dystonic…and now I’m even more confused -_-
I really hope you can help me understand what is going on
Thanks
Val
Hi Jon,
Sorry to trouble you again. My soul has not been at ease again and my anxiety is through the roof. I really don’t know how to react to these feelings of attractions or desire for men. I remember first time I felt an attraction to a man was when before my 22 birthday. I was doing drugs, psychedellic and pot with my friend when a memory of a same sex expereince I had with another friend of mine that I had when I was 14 all of a sudden came to my head. It was the strangest thing as all of a sudden I wondered if I just found my best friend who I was with attractive, to all of a sudden feel an attraction to another man, as I have never before that time felt that. Prior to that time I have never felt sexual or sexually attracted to another male, only women. I was at the time having troubles in my relationships with women. I wasn’t having sex for about a year, could not find a girlfriend and I was wondering what the hell was wrong with me why I couldn’t find a girlfriend and I wondered about why I could not seem to “get laid”. When I was 18-19 I found sex with women to come very easily as well as falling in love and havinb relationships.
That was the only attraction I felt for another male until about half a year later, when I finally was able to meet a girl, but unfortunately suffered from erectile disfunction. This is when I freaked out. The memory of the night from half a year ago came back about having had a same sex experience when I was 14 and I freaked out and said to my self “oh no, you must be gay”. The run-away train of these thoughts and doubts has not stopped since. It has made me miserable. I stopped hanging out with my friends, I eventually stopped dating, and did not have sex for 11 years. I recently met a woman whom I have had sex with but the same sex worries and attractions persist. I came across HOCD informaiton recently which I wasn’t aware of. I tried the CBT execrises and they worked quite well for a few days, but the releif did not last. I feel tortured by this. I wish these attractions to men which casue me panic to this day would go away. These desires for men feel so real, I get aroused and it feels that I like it. I am very confused about all this.
Hi Jon,
I have been diagnosed with sexual orientation ocd by several professionals. I have been to therapy and learned many CBT techniques, as well as ERP. Yesterday I was doing some online ERP and was doing well just trying to let the thoughts and anxiety “be”. Anyways after a while, I began to feel a sense of doubt and went to a “gay porn” site. I watched a very erotic video and responded with a FULL erection. This obviously has left me in quite a bit of panic and sadness, as this seems much more intense then just a simple groinal response or feeling. This was not just a small response or movement, but a full out arousal/erection, although it has made me feel very depressed. What does this mean?
Val,
You write, “why do I feel arousal in homosexual dreams? I’ve always thought I was straight. These dreams seem to fuel my anxiety because the arousal in them seems so real.”
—We tend to remember very little about dreams. Of the small bits of dreams that remain in our memory, we tend to over-attend, over-value, and over-respond to those moments which we think have some significance. You think “gay” content is important because of your ocd, so it doesn’t seem unusual to me that you are going to be hyper-aware of gayness popping up in dreams. It’s enjoyable in the dream because in the dream you are enjoying it. If you were flying in the dream, my guess is that would feel a strong breeze and convincing sense of excitement, but this would not provide you with much useful information about your ability to fly. You enjoyed being gay in the dream because you were gay in the dream. then you woke up remembered you weren’t and your ocd has you thinking dreams mean something.
Dreams don’t mean anything.
You ask, “Why do homosexual thoughts in my walking life trigger so much anxiety?”
—-The thoughts trigger anxiety because you respond to them with compulsions that make them seem important.
You write, “I wonder if these dreams are a signal for repressed feelings that I am not aware of?”
—This is a psychoanalytic concept that I do not agree exists.
You write, “It’s gotten to the point where I don’t want to go to sleep anymore because I am terrified that I will get these ‘nightmares’ again. I’ve alienated almost all of my female friends because I fear that I will become attracted to them or develop a sexual desire towards them.”
—These would be good examples of avoidant compulsions and are the very things that fuel your ocd. My recommendation is to do the opposite. Go to sleep “trying” to have gay dreams and spend more time with your female friends allowing whatever thoughts to happen simply happen.
To your question about “ego dystonic homosexuality” I’m not very familiar with the concept. I imagine it means something long the lines of what i have been saying in these blogs, that some homosexuals choose not to pursue homosexual lifestyles because of feared consequences in the culture or family they live in. People may interpret this as being gay and not wanting to be. I think this concept viewed outside of the cultural implications is something silly someone made up one day to sound like a smart psychologist. In any case, trying to prove that you have ocd and NOT this phenomenon would just be an example of a compulsion. You will have to accept the uncertainty.
Similarly, you will have to let go of the ocd demand that you understand ego syntonic vs. ego dystonic perfectly. It is not so important. Like you said, you like fantasizing about straight stuff and you find thoughts about gay stuff to be upsetting and anxiety-producing. You don’t need to know for sure if this means you are straight or gay. Go with the assumption that the evidence appears to be pointing in – that you are a straight person with intrusive unwanted gay thoughts and you obsess about them and do compulsions and therefore have ocd which you should be getting CBT treatment for.
Gracie, if I understand your post correctly, you are a female who is sexually attracted to other females and sometimes also to males. Your fear is that you will only ever be attracted to females and will find men disgusting, but will somehow end up in a straight relationship anyway and be trapped there. Also, that if you accept that you are bisexual, some negative thing will result. What I’m hearing is that you are obsessing bout an unknowable future and trying to find some sort of label to affix to yourself that will make you stop obsessing. But this doesn’t seem like a good strategy because you are genuinely attracted to women. Whether this makes you a lesbian, bi, or a straight girl with gay fantasies is not really that important. In short, you will need to accept that you are attracted to whomever you are attracted to and will pursue whatever relationships feel genuine to you. Needing to be certain that these are the “right” choices ahead of time instead of staying in the present is where the ocd comes in. If I am misreading the post, let me know as I am not entirely clear on what you are afraid of.
Peter,
The OCD Insitute at McLean Hospital is in Massachusetts. You should also go to http://www.ocfoundation.org and use their “find a therapist” tool which will display treatment providers in your area. There are quite a few in your state. You mentioned doing some CBT but it sounds like you need a more consistent treatment program and one that employs both cognitive restructuring and exposure w/ response prevention.
As for your other post, why is it not possible for you to be a man who typically prefers women but occasionally finds men attractive? The panic comes from the distorted belief that you must only ever be attracted to one thing all the time or its opposite all the time.
Justin,
Sexual thoughts cause sexual arousal. Watching people have sex (gay or straight) and getting an erection doesn’t have to mean anything. What I think is more significant is that you decided to watch gay porn in response to feelings of doubt, which indicates that you were doing it to “check” your orientation compulsively. If you are going to use gay porn as part of a structured ERP program, then it needs to be done without compulsions and that includes resisting the mental compulsion to analyze your erections.
Jon thank you so much for taking the time to answer my post. Your answer was very helpful
.
Jon,
Is it possible that even though I was oriented hetersexually, I may have developed a desire to perform oral sex on men, after my same sex experience at age 14. I only had one such expereince in my life, but it was my first sexual experience. It could be that when the memory came back, it was because I unconsciously wanted to recreate the expereince. I’ve fought this now for 13 years, but it appears that what my mind wants is for me to perform oral sex on a guy. Is this my OCD telling me I want to perform oral on a guy or my true sexual urge. Logically it makes no sense that I’m gay, because growing up I had no attractions or desires for guys, but the feeling feels very real. Please advise.
Hello, I have had hocd for over 2 months now. And I just cannot take it anymore. It all started when I watched lez porn (I’m a girl), and I found it disgusting, but at the same time, couldn’t stop watching and felt a little aroused. But I have NEVER, EVER fancied a girl, or crushed on one. I can’t even picture what it would be like to fancy a girl. It feels wrong to me. I could never love a woman.
But this porn thing is constantly playing on my mind, it’s become such a regret. I feel like crying all the time!
I don’t understand what made me want to watch it, and why I was a little aroused. Because after I saw it, it just makes me feel sick! Some days, I can dismiss it and think, (you were curious), and I have heard that many straight women have a bisexual arousal pattern. And it’s completely normal to feel a little turned on by that porn because it’s all about pleasing your own genitals. Throughout this whole hocd phase, I’ve gone through so many stages. It started when I thought I was lez, and my attraction for men seemed to disappear, and then it came back and I felt straight and great! And then a new question popped in my head, what if I’m bi? And this part is actually way worse!
I would really like some reassurance about this whole porn thing please! I’d be so grateful if you could help x
Hi Jon,
I’ve been in a miserable state for the past four months. I’m currently 19 and I have had sexual feelings for men throughout my teen years which I never paid too much attention too. However, the thought of possibly being gay has recently been causing great anxiety and distress to me. I also feel as if I have no sexual preference for women.
My question to you is whether I’m in denial or experiencing hocd? Being gay just doesn’t seem like a possibility to me. I have always wanted to have a proper heterosexual married life for as long as I can remember. This is issue is ruining my life, I feel as if my whole life has shattered before my eyes and that I have no reason to live anymore.
Also Jon its not like I haven’t been sexually attracted to women before. I do get arousal to straight porn but ever since this problem started I feel as if my attraction towards women has completely disappeared. Whenever I have heterosexual thoughts I feel relieved. It gives me some hope that I am normal. Is this also a part of hocd?
Your input is extremely appreciated.
Dear John,
I think it’s amazing how you keep putting so much effort in replying to all our desperate questions.. I appreciate it very much, it helps me a lot reading all your answers!
I think i am struggling with seksual ocd for a long time. I am in therapy now and working on mindfulness and its getting better. I now am at a point that I’m exposing myself by visiting gaybars and hang out with gaypeople (all my life I considerd myself as being straight). One night I ended with actually kissing a gaymen and went home with him. I didn’t enjoyed it at all. It was not horrible or something but it just didn’t turn me on.. The day after I was very happy that I did not liked it and I kind of interpret it as a proof for being straight! However, a few days later, I start obssesive thinking ‘what IF this had happened with a guy I find more attractive?’ Will I find arrousal THAN? I also think obsessive of ‘what happens if a ‘good looking’ guy tells me he is gay and makes a move on me’? What happens when a good straight MATE of me that i love in friendship, tells me he is gay and he likes me, how will I react than’? I have so much ‘what ifs’ in my head all the time that it really stress me in my daily work and my quality of life..
- Do you have a particular advise for me in this one?
Also I have one more question I would like to ask. I experience my anxiety about being gay, is slightly reducing and sometimes I say to myself ‘ok, lets call myself Bi-seksual than’. But then I found myself fall, in what you descibe as ‘the spectrum ocd’. When I think of me being Bi-seksual, I start getting really scared that I’m not sure where I am at the Mckinsey scale. I had a really deeploving relationship for two years with a girl I truly loved, but it ended because she wanted kids and live together, but I was to afraid because of my hocds. Not knowing for sure where I am at the Kinzeyscale really obstruct me in starting a new relationship or just date a girl. Moreover I’m really scared that it will never get clear who I am, and I might never be able to have a deep relationship with one or the other seks.. For the rest of my life! This obsession can continu in terms, like really seeing myself dying alone in the dark..
- Do you maybe have some more advise, how I can deal with this spectrum ocd and uncomfort with uncertainty?
Sorry if you advise someone about this earlier and I didnt read it. Also for my grammer if it has some mistakes, since Im not from the states.
Thank you so much in advance..
Hi again,
You said the happiness factor is not relevant to the term dystonic or syntonic. “It is not about how they make you feel. It is about whether or not you perceive them as being congruent with who you are and what is real.”
What I mean is, isn’t what feels congruent and what I would describe as feeling “right for me” or “natural” likely to make us feel happiness? I’m trying to differentiate how we tell what is real or just what we want.
For example, when I am intimate with a man and wake up loving the fact that they are there, surely this content is reflective of what is true for me and therefore congruent with who I am and what I want. Or am I missing the mark?
I also wonder why I read a post on a magazine website that talked about a bunch of straight women who are turned on by gay porn or fantansies but say they doubt they would follow through because they aren’t emotionally attracted when it comes down to it. Can you please explain why some straight people, who have no doubts about their sexuality, would have these thoughts if they weren’t bi-sexual/in denial?
Thanks Jon. (sorry for the follow up questions but I find your comments very insightful).
Oh and what I meant about my other comment that I didn’t explain very clearly in the post before this one was this: I understand the concept of being indenial, but I’m assuming these people refuse to think about and mentally explore the option of being gay. I was wondering since OCD-ers are prone to analysis, and many of us dont have a problem with homobophia, does this indicate that if we were gay we would be because our problem isn’t actually coming out it’s doing something our mind is telling us to, but what we truly don’t. Is that clearer? Sorry for confusion.
Jon,
Thanks for everything. This website has helped alot.
How can one find help in the Atlanta area from someone that believes in HOCD. My therapist doesn’t seem to believe in it.
Thanks
Wanttogetbetter2,
Unfortunately, we hear stories like this all the time. Simply put, if your therapist doesn’t believe in HOCD, then you must find a new therapist – one who is better educated about the complexities of OCD. Fortunately, there is an excellent OCD specialist in Atlanta named Dr. Charles Melville. Here is a link to his website: http://www.drcharlesmelville.com/
If for any reason he is not available for new clients, try the therapist directory at the International OCD Foundation at http://www.ocfoundation.org.
Peter, I don’t know what it means to unconsciously want to recreate and experience. All things wanted are conscious in my opinion. Having thoughts about something you did or having thoughts about something you might do is not an indicator of sexual orientation. If you believe yourself to be attracted to women, then you should pursue that attraction regardless of what thoughts you may have about giving oral sex to men. If in the course of your life you find yourself presented with an opportunity to perform oral sex on a man, then you should decide whether or not you will take it at that moment in time. In the meantime it is better to assume your thoughts are not so important and whether you have a desire to give fellatio or not is not the deal-breaker of one’s orientation overall.
Clairee, reassurance is not what you need, but I’ll throw you a bone anyway. Many straight women prefer lesbian porn to straight porn. I’m not sure why, but I have asked around about this and I think it has something to do with male pornstars not being very attractive and women tending to be more activated by taboo situations than just dirty images.
It sounds like you have an ocd problem, which requires an ocd solution, which in this case would mean doing structured exposure and response prevention to lesbian pornography. This would mean watching it whole resisting any urges to tell yourself you don’t like it and instead allowing yourself to feel aroused or scared or whatever it produces in you.
Hi Karam, it sounds from your post like you have sexual feelings for both men and women. If you do not want to lead a lifestyle that involves pursuing sexual relations with men, and if you do want to pursue a lifestyle that is exclusive to heterosexual pursuits, then that is what you should do. It’s your life. But this will mean accepting that you have sexual thoughts of a wide variety and that it is not necessary to treat them all as important. To the contrary, your aim should be to accept and even enjoy that there are some gay sexual feelings in you, but that it is not necessary to define yourself solely by those feelings. It sounds like you are engaging in some compulsive behaviors to try to convince yourself that you are 100% straight and that will generally backfire. Self acceptance is key, be it straight, gay, bi or whatever.
Hi Richard, it does sound like you fall somewhere on a sexual orientation spectrum, since it is difficult otherwise to understand why you would engage in any homosexual behavior during exposure work. Typically in ERP we are doing exposure to the fear of being gay, not to gay acts themselves. And in this case it sounds like you were invested in being sexual with this man for the purpose of testing how much you would like it. This usually backfires in the same way other compulsive checking does. So if the issue is that you are on a spectrum, in which you have sexual feelings for both men and women, but you are obsessing about exactly how much of each, accepting that uncertainty is key. You should resist all efforts to pinpoint your place on the scale and instead look at this as totally unknowable and irrelevant. My guess is no matter where someone sits on this scale, it varies from day to day, person to person anyway.
Hi Getting better…,
You write, “What I mean is, isn’t what feels congruent and what I would describe as feeling “right for me” or “natural” likely to make us feel happiness? I’m trying to differentiate how we tell what is real or just what we want.”
—A schizophrenia sufferer may tell you there is a bug planted in your phone recording your thoughts. This thought is ego syntonic, but I doubt it makes them happy. Your attempt to know for sure the difference between syntonic and dystonic is compulsive. Knowing this will not make the ocd go away.
You write, “For example, when I am intimate with a man and wake up loving the fact that they are there, surely this content is reflective of what is true for me and therefore congruent with who I am and what I want.”
—Sounds right to me. But it is not necessary to know with 100% certainty and any attempts to do so would be compulsive and ultimately take you out of the moment (which you should be enjoying instead of analyzing!).
You write, “I also wonder why I read a post on a magazine website that talked about a bunch of straight women who are turned on by gay porn or fantansies but say they doubt they would follow through because they aren’t emotionally attracted when it comes down to it. Can you please explain why some straight people, who have no doubts about their sexuality, would have these thoughts if they weren’t bi-sexual/in denial?”
—I can’t explain why women do much of anything. But I will say that gay thoughts are normal events, whether you are gay or not. Some people have gay thoughts and enjoy them because they are taboo or exciting in some way. Yet they choose to identify as straight and pursue straight relationships because they want something more than just excitement in their lives. I may have the occasional violent thought and may even enjoy it, but so far I have chosen not to murder anyone. This either means I am in serial killer denial, am bi-violational (I made that up), or that thoughts aren’t that important to begin with.
Hi John, thanks a lot for you reply. Can you help me with one more thing please? I realize you are right, I did this thing with this man because I was really urging for proof, so i can pinpoint myself on the spectrum. But maybe it has also a lot to do with the subtype ‘really need to know’. I’m visiting these bars in the hope I can shut out these fears of being gay or for ‘not knowing’, once and for all. I think I do that because I have this big disturbing obsession: that as long I have no proof for not being gay or not being bi-seksual, I will not be able to go for a loving relationship with a girl (what I’m almost sure of I prefer, cause I never felt in love with a guy).. (I remember my fears and obsessions started 10 years ago when I read an article about a man,42, married and kids, founding out he was gay, and had to quit his relationship – and I saw that as a huge drama).
Can you agree with this analysis? And do you have some suggestions to overcome this underlying fear of not being able to find a deep loving relationship? (I understand now searching for proof is a compulsion)
Thanks a lot, Richard
Richard, I think you need to separate the two issues of your sexual orientation and your obsession about being in the “right” relationship. With the little I know about you, it sounds like you are a guy who likes women, and at the same time finds homosexuality activating for you. They don’t have to be mutually exclusive concepts. However, if you continue to over-attend to the idea that it is important to know how much “gayness” is in you, it ill always seem like something is terribly off.
As for the fear of not being able to have a healthy relationship with a woman or of ruining that relationship in the future, the only thing you can do is pursue a relationship that seems loving to you and run the risk of ruining it. This risk would be the same whether you had gay thoughts or not. I may ruin my wife’s life yet. We’ll have to wait and see. In the meantime, I have blog posts to write.
Many thanks again Jon, I will quit proofing myself and trust in myself and life. Your new post is really helpful as well. I hope you’ll find enough inspiration to write one more-;)
Much respect..
Richard, if it makes you feel any better, I have also had a fear of one day being married with wife and kids and all of a sudden saying, “Oh no I’m gay, goodbye wife and kids.” I also saw something like this on TV and it scared me. And I should mention I’ve never had an attraction to another man or engaged in any such behaviors. I don’t know why I have this fear/thought, but I’m starting to realize more and more that it’s just a deceptive brain message. Think about the rationality of the thought. Isn’t it just as likely or even more likely I would leave my wife for a different woman? Or maybe even die before I get married. Or maybe my wife will become a lesbian and leave me? All of these ideas probably have the same likelihood of happening as my fear, but I don’t worry about these things. That’s probably because I’ve accepted the uncertainty of these ideas happening or not and said, “Whatever, I’ll take my chances.”
Do I run the risk of this scenario happening to me whether I give my thought attention or not? I guess so. But I’d like to be in a healthy relationship with a women because that’s what I enjoy. I don’t know what the future holds, but I’d rather accept the uncertainty of the situation (to whatever degree that might be) and try to live a healthy live without fear. Whatever happens, happens. You decide, worry about the future and engage in unhealthy behaviors (reassurance seeking) or just live your life and hope for the best.
Thank you very much for taking the time to reply to my message. I really appreciate it!
Yeah, see the thing is, I really, really don’t want to watch lez porn ever again! Or any other porn for that matter. I just don’t want to go near it again. I fear that if I watch it again I will just get more and more worked up about it. I believe I did look at it because it was different, taboo and out of the norm. But I regret it soo much! Words can’t explain how much I wish I never saw it. When I think about it I feel sick and ashamed, and just awful! It keeps making me think I’m gay or bi when I know I’m not! Everywhere I go my ocd makes me look at women and think “do I fancy her?”. It’s doing my head in and I can’t take it any more. I’m too scared to go to a therapist though. You said that watching the porn again would help, but I strongly don’t want to see it again. That must mean I don’t enjoy it right? I mean, yeah I was kinda aroused by looking at it. But wouldn’t anyone be? It was dirty and sexual. It’s bound to get anyone aroused.
Also, I have stumbled across images of these kinds of things at a very young age. I have 3 older brothers, and when I was about 11 or 12 I saw dirty magazines. I remember looking in them and being quite upset afterwards by the images. They played on my mind. Could this contribute to why I have so much problem with all this? I repeat I have never, ever fancied a girl. I have always liked boys, when I’m near a boy I like I just feel all that sexual tension and electricity. But I never feel that when around a girl. I just feel normal. At least before this hocd started. Do you think you understand what’s going on here?:( I’m so sorry to bother you with all this, but I feel you’d be a good help
Hey I was wondering if it was normal with HOCD to sometimes look at other guys penis for no reason and sometimes you find it hard to look at ppl in the eyes for that reason..please give me an answer as soon as possible..they have me on Paxil now so i hope that helps as well..well anyways thanks for any information
Clairee, I totally understand your desire to avoid material that triggers you. Of course avoidance negates any potential for overcoming fear. It’s important to remember that you are triggered by certain things not because of what THEY are, but because of what YOU are thinking about what they are.
If you were to track something like gay pornography from its least mindful perspective to its most mindful, it would go like this: a terrifying threat to your existence, a potential source of confusion about sexuality, gay people having sex, imagery depicting gay people having sex, erotic imagery, imagery on a computer or tv screen, and finally, lights on a box with sounds. Which of these things resonate with you the most is based entirely on how you respond to what is there.
In short, you deserve to live free of the fear that if you encountered some lights on a box, it might make you experience more discomfort than you can handle. Exposure with Response Prevention (ERP), whether it includes pornography or not, is the best way to achieve this freedom. I believe you would benefit from seeking out an ocd specialist who can guide you through CBT and you will be able to feel this freedom again.
Matt W, compulsions that involve staring at people’s genitals are actually pretty common. It’s not always connected to sexual obsessions, but it can be. Sometimes it’s an ocd issue of it’s own, related more to a fear of not knowing if you are going to be looking at someone inappropriately. Obviously looking at something that is in your field of vision is a normal event. If the looking has graduated to staring, you want to consider what you are thinking that is making it difficult to resist over-attending to that one body part.
If I understand the subtext of your comment, then you might be asking me if looking at penises makes you gay. I don’t see why it would or how one could know for sure anyway. Would looking at vaginas make you straight?
Anyway, if it’s a staring compulsion, it is treatable with cognitive behavioral therapy whether it’s connected to sexual obsessions or not.
Frank, thanks a lot for your comments. Indeed, anything can happen but the reason for my fears are always hocd, because this has become my obsession.. I think our struggle with uncertainty is quite similar as I read your questions earlier in this forum (if you’re the same frank tough). I am getting better also in accepting the intrusive gaytoughts and not answerring it with compulsions. I say to my self nowadays: I am – how i call it – a colourful person with lots of feelings. This can mean I sometimes see a man that somehow attracts me – it doesn’t means i want sex with him or it says something about my sexual preferences.. But, after resisting any compulsions what comes is a sort of ‘hollow’ feeling. I think this feeling is the uncertainty I mention and maybe this is what you mean by ’scrambled’ feelings? I think we have to resist to ’solve’ this feelings as well, as that would be a compulsion again. I think having these hollow feelings mean that we are on the right track brother.. good luck.
If Jon has some more comments on this, it would be much appreciated.
Hi Dr. Hershfield,
I have been suffering with obsessive doubts over my sexual orientation for nearly two years now. I am 18 years old. Before I obsessed over my sexual orientation, I was extremely attracted to guys. All I thought about were my guy friends and they were all I wanted to be around. I dreamed of the day I would find Mr. Right and I felt very very turned on by guys. BUT- I have always found womens’ bodies to be a turn on in fantasy, and I thought girls were pretty. I have never been attracted to a girl or been in love with one and never imagined myself with one, always guys. But during masturbation I enjoy fantasizing about women. It never bothered me too much, exept for some occasional episodes of doubt/panic/ambivalence throughout puberty. I dream sexually/emotionally only of guys, but exept for two dreams in my life where I kissed a girl. That freaks me out too.
It all started when I was just out with my friend one day and accidentally caught a glance at her backside and immediately freaked out. I asked “Did I like that?” and from that moment on the obsessing has been overwhelming.
What I worry is, since I’ve had these fantasies, will a secret lesbian part of me come to the surface and ruin my life? Will I always feel unsure of my identity? Are the periods of worry/ambivalence prior to this episode evidence of being gay? Am I gay and just not accepting it? Will I act on these behaviours? I am afraid that I secretly want to, and I’m afraid that if I do, I will like it more and stop liking men forever and lose everything that made me so happy..even though I have never desired to act on it or felt a curiosity or urge to do so. These thoughts plague me.
Since the obsession has started though, I have engaged in sexual behaviours with men and enjoyed all of them to the fullest, and fell briefly in love…with a guy. Yet I just can’t stop this.
Please help me Jon!
Sincerely,
Katie.
Richard, well said. The hollow or scrambled or whatever feeling that you have needs to be accepted and observed as simply happening. To analyze or attempt to suppress it would be distorting its significance and refueling the ocd. In addition, the presence of that feeling could be an indicator that you are doing the right thing. When someone stops doing a compulsion, they are left with a feeling of uncertainty to which they are not accustomed. Thus, this feeling should not only be accepted, but sought out and embraced.
Jon please help….Freaked out: went to work…saw a couple of girls thought they were attractive and I thought of being with them sexually and I was getting aroused then I started talking to a coworker who is gay and he was cheery when greeting me and then I saw a beautiful girl who I was attracted to but I was discussing something with you the gay coworker and he was cheery and I thought he’s all bubbly and I felt a weird magnetic kiind oof attraction or something and I thought he’s good looking and I looked at him when he walked and noticed and thought he looked gay and I had a feeling in my penis…and I think I had a thought about kissing him and a feeling in groin again…it was weird I don’t know if it was anxiety or if I really liked him or I was just aroused in general with all these women I was seeing and getting turned on by……or I don’t know if this means I amm gay or bisexual now……what was that?
Katie, it looks like you have enough insight to see the truth of the situation, which is that you are a heterosexual woman who occasionally fantasizes about gay sex and has the capacity to recognize when another woman is sexually attractive (either objectively or subjectively). This sounds totally normal to me and a rather common viewpoint for heterosexual women. See part 4 of this blog for more on gay fantasy. http://www.ocdla.com/blog/sexual-orientation-ocd-challenges-treatment-hocd-1305
The ocd comes into play with the compulsive analysis of whether these normal “gay” thoughts could mean something threatening. In the case of HOCD the threat is that you will not be able to continue your natural enjoyment of heterosexual behavior and will be forced to change your identity against your will. This pushes you to perform mental compulsions designed to make yourself feel certain that the gay thoughts are not evidence of denial. But this backfires because whenever you try to convince yourself of something you already know to be true, your brain thinks there is a debate going on. Try to convince yourself the sky is blue and eventually you will start feeling it to be somewhat green.
In the end, you need to accept uncertainty, reject automatic over-attention to the thoughts, and pursue behaviors that you wish to pursue when you wish to pursue them presently. If these behaviors turn out to be different than the ones you currently enjoy, then you will deal with that then, not now.
In my above post I think I had the thought I want him….I guess im at least bisexual….what the hell?
Dana, all I’m hearing in your post is that you are investing a lot of mental energy in monitoring your feelings to make certain they are the right ones to have and compulsively over-attending to what your penis is doing to make certain it’s doing whatever you think the right thing is. Since observing your internal world this way changes that internal world by definition, you will remain stuck in an uncertain limbo thinking there is something amiss about your sexuality. What you need to do instead is stay in the present moment, have whatever thoughts and feelings you have when you have them, and stop trying to categorize everything in terms of straight, gay, or bi. All that actually happened was that you saw some girls, saw a guy, and had some thoughts and feelings. “Meaning” is being created by the compulsions, not the events.
Hi Jon,
Ive been suffering from a sexual obsession for a year now.
I was in therapy (CBT) which helped in the ahort term until the therapist moved away and wasnt replaced.
im not diagnosed with OCD, but seeing as my problem was centered aeound anxiety, nd having suffered from anxiety all my life (led to believe as my dad was never around) she thought it was a simple anxiety problem, though because its not OCD (When it first started, without looking online i was mentally checking) doesnt mean im gay, my therapist said its not un common for people my age (18) to obsess over their sexuallity.
As far back as I remember, ive always liked girls. I started masturbating at 14, and always to girls. I always remember looking at girls. Though all of my checking on gay porn and mentally never produced same sex arousal, however Jon, 5 weeks ago, when on the web, i quickly glanced at a picture of a guy and wondered if i found him attractive. I sat looking at the picture and imagining sex with him. I got really bad anxiety, but this time i became quickly aroused and have ever since, even to the word or thought of gay sex. For me my sexuality seemed to change in a minute. Im still aroused by girls, though recently my thoughts have staryed to change, that i dont want girls, or straight sex. Ive been long time members of NeuroticPlanet and StuckInADoorway. Nothing in my past to indicate im gay, i even turned down a gay sexual experiance about 4/5 years ago. Though ive never kissed a girl or had sex, though neither has alot of blokes. Its a living nightmare right now. I just want it gone, i keep getting thoughts of memories that i cnt recall. Was never bothered by gays and still arent, just not me as one.
My anxiety has gone somewhat since CBT, so left with thoughts and arousals. Every guy i see i question if i find him attractive.
Your thoughts would be appreciated plase Jon.
Is there such a thing as Contamination HOCD? I think that contact with semen(my own or others) is going to turn me gay, and I’ll lose my attraction for females and start having one for men. If I touch almost anything around my room or even parts of the clothes I’m wearing I have to wash my hands.
I tell myself it’s ridiculous, but at the same time it’s too scary to risk so I have to wash.
Is this OCD too, or am I just crazy?
Hey Jon,
Thanks so much for your comments. Makes me feel much better. Although I do have a problem; I still live with my parents. I spend most of my days asking if I’m normal and asking for reassurance. They have all had obsessive worries too, and have gotten over them. They know that I am normal and think I’m being silly, and they know that one day I’ll just realize I am a normal straight girl. I know one day I will too, but I’m having issues getting rid of my anxiety. They don’t believe I should go into therapy.
So Jon, I need some advice. How and what can I do to help myself out? I’ve tried accepting uncertainty, I’ve tried to stop doing compulsions, but this has been going on for so long that I feel as if my brain has made of habit of the obsession and compulsions. I’m so frustrated, because I just started university and I’m meeting so many hot guys and crushing on them so hard, but my fear makes me feel awful. I’m tired of it ruining my happiness. I am desperate to get rid of this.
Thank you so much.
Katie
Hey guys,
Been a while since I posted on here. I can relate to all of u. I went through the same thing. My treatment included medication however. But also its good to practice to follow up after ur treatment for hocd. Not just for u but for other people in the blog. Remember that if u let the intrusive thoughts get to u the worse it gets. Do not perseverate, and don’t constantly go back and check. There are very distinct difference between being gay and having hocd. Read up on it! Take a course at ur college about human sexuality. And don’t let those triggers get to u.
Well, I got all of them but one… I even got some that I even hadn’t realized before hehehe.
Anyway, very interesting article, I have had this for two years more or less and never read this interesting list of subtypes.
MrNeurotox, what I am hearing is that you experience sexual arousal sometimes when having gay thoughts. The fear is that this makes you gay and means you can’t be with girls. But the presence or absence of this arousal does not determine one’s sexual orientation. People have a variety of thoughts, feelings, and physical sensations occurring independently of one another or in various combinations.
Questioning if you think a guy is attractive, or more to the point, trying to answer the question of whether a guy is attractive, sounds like a compulsion. My recommendation is to locate another cbt therapist, preferably someone who specializes in ocd and can guide you through a full course of cbt for this obsession. While it may be normal for a teenager to “obsess” about sex issues, your pattern of over-attending to the issue and trying to gain certainty sounds more like ocd to me.
Edgar Baratheon, this is definitely ocd. Most of the time people with hocd are fearing things will “make them gay” even when this idea is not grounded in reality. Similarly people with contamination ocd will often fear being contaminated in ways that simply do not exist (i.e. getting AIDS from a doorknob). You’ve simply combined the two. I have seen a lot of hocd conceptualize themselves as being more likely to “turn gay” if they don’t double-check the stove or wash their clothes after being near a gay person and so on and so on. Just because it makes little sense, doesn’t mean it’s crazy. That’s just ocd.
You think the risk is too great that failing to wash after coming in contact (perceived or real) with your semen might make you gay. The real risk is having to experience the discomfort that occurs when you resist the washing ritual. But the only way to get past the discomfort is to learn to sit with it. This means you need to stop compulsively washing.
Katie, if you have financial access to ocd treatment, I don’t see a valid argument for avoiding it. Your parents may not fully understand what ocd is or how it is treated, but you need to put your mental health first above and beyond their opinions. Yes, the compulsions need to stop (especially the reassurance seeking questions), but for you to get your freedom back from ocd, you’re likely going to need a structured exposure plan. You can try it on your own through some books on ocd, but my recommendation is getting a cbt therapist who specializes in ocd. You deserve to be happy and enjoy your hot college guy crushes even in the presence of unwanted thoughts.
Hi there it is wonderful to find this site. My HOCD (if that’s what it is) started 2 years ago it’s been an off and on thing. It all started like a thunder bolt lightening to my head of one day I had a thought…. after coming out of a pretty hideous break up and missing the guy so much I had depression I was questioning why in relationships do I feel so suffocated and why do I feel the need to run away? I was heart broken about this guy and one day I was asking myself what is the problem? And a thought of “maybe it’s because you’re supposed to be with a girl” and my whole life fell apart that seemed to make sense so I came out to my parents and everything however I didn’t want a relationship with a woman and I didn’t want to go near one sexually once I accepted they I was gay and got my life back in order mean while I still had anxiety still it didn’t seem to be the answer then I started finding men attractive again and was like no I’m not gay how ridiculous I’m straight!! It seems to come on when my life is stressful and now I seem to be stuck in a rut and it has evolved…..
I also like to add I have a constant nagging fear that one day I will be gay…. I also feel hideous low self esteem… And I avoid girls I avoid watching tv going out etc in case of the thoughts I have tried watching lesbian porn and it doesn’t work I find it boring! I prefer straight porn. If I do on a rare occasion find a guy attractive sone voice in my head shoots it down…. But attractive girls to me is like looking at an attractive spider!! Fear rages through me
I was wondering…. Is it normal for my attraction to the opposite sex deminish?? When I look at girls a voice pops in my head telling me I’m attracted to her or makes me think about bring in a relationship and it feels like a test? My response to these thoughts are always big anxiety and depression….. Is this normal or do I sound gay!?? Please help me, I feel like nobody understands!
Abby, what you describe sounds like HOCD to me. I like the way term “attractive spider” – I’ll have to sue that!
Loss of attraction to things you once felt attracted to is common both in depression and in cases where a person is over-attending to how attracted they think they are supposed to be. You are dealing with both of these issues. The feeling of being sexually attracted to someone is not easy to attain when you are watching your feelings like a hawk, trying to make sure they are the right ones at the right times.
Many people who have had difficulty in relationships with the opposite sex may start to ponder if things would go better with the same sex. Naturally, the same sex understands what it’s like to be your gender, so it’s an appealing notion. But the theory that same-sex relationships are somehow easier than straight ones is based on straight people having little information about gay relationships. A quick look at domestic violence statistics demonstrates quite clearly that hetero and gay relationships are pretty much the same.
Homosexuality is not about attractive spiders. It’s about genuine emotional AND sexual drive to be with a member of the same sex.
OCD is about having an intolerance of uncertainty and a compulsive urge to analyze thoughts and feelings to gain certainty about them. Your mental attempts to prove you are straight are no different from another ocd sufferers physical attempts at handwashing perfectly. What you need is to stop treating this like a sexual orientation issue and treat it like an ocd issue by getting cognitive behavioral therapy.
I know it can be very isolating dealing with ocd, but there are people who understand you.
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